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Michael Rogers Positive for Clenbuterol

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  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,723
    TheBigBean wrote:
    It's almost like they should just bring in a tolerance threshold for Clenbuterol and move on...

    Isn't the point with Clenbuterol that the body doesn't produce it, so that if it's present, it has to have been taken in one form or another? Thresholds/ratios are applied where the substance concerned is produced by the body.

    If memory serves, the hoohah over Berto was that the level detected by the Cologne lab was below the level that labs need to be able to detect in order to gain WADA accreditation. Thus there was the argument that if he'd been tested by a different lab, he'd have not tested positive.

    Could be wrong here, though.

    Perhaps they mean an 'effectiveness' threshold, or threshold where the amount correlates to a typical amount from contaminated food?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Perhaps they mean an 'effectiveness' threshold, or threshold where the amount correlates to a typical amount from contaminated food?

    I think this would be interpreted by cyclists as a green light to use Clenbuterol, as collectively, the pros are a sneaky bunch and they will exploit any opening they are presented with. There's a much higher proportion of the pro peleton with TUEs for Salbutamol (asthma treatment) than there is asthmatics in the general population. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that Salbutamol is a well-known masking agent for other banned substances.
  • Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Perhaps they mean an 'effectiveness' threshold, or threshold where the amount correlates to a typical amount from contaminated food?

    I think this would be interpreted by cyclists as a green light to use Clenbuterol, as collectively, the pros are a sneaky bunch and they will exploit any opening they are presented with. There's a much higher proportion of the pro peloton with TUEs for Salbutamol (asthma treatment) than there is asthmatics in the general population. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that Salbutamol is a well-known masking agent for other banned substances.

    Agreed. Pro's aren't opposed to a "marginal gain" if one is available. :wink:
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • JUST KEEP AWAY FROM THE FREAKING MEAT WHEN IN CHINA OR MEXICO

    What is complicated about that?
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    JUST KEEP AWAY FROM THE FREAKING MEAT WHEN IN CHINA OR MEXICO

    What is complicated about that?

    Exactly. A pro cyclist spends most of there working life looking after themselves, and there bodies. Being careful what and how much they eat is simply part of the metier. Also, the medical and nutritional staff on any team would surely advise on what could be dodgy. They advise on what over the counter medication is a no go, so I cant believe they are not aware of what foods may be a particular danger in certain countries.
  • Robbie McEwan's blaming the UCI for licensing races in a country like China where clen in meat products is an issue

    Way to go, Robbie!


    :roll:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    JUST KEEP AWAY FROM THE FREAKING MEAT WHEN IN CHINA OR MEXICO

    What is complicated about that?
    But they were given assurances. And what about Japan? Where are they getting their meat from?

    You can be as careful as you like, but mistakes will still happen. Not all countries can rely on high quality horse lasagne like us.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,690
    TheBigBean wrote:
    It's almost like they should just bring in a tolerance threshold for Clenbuterol and move on...

    Isn't the point with Clenbuterol that the body doesn't produce it, so that if it's present, it has to have been taken in one form or another? Thresholds/ratios are applied where the substance concerned is produced by the body.

    If memory serves, the hoohah over Berto was that the level detected by the Cologne lab was below the level that labs need to be able to detect in order to gain WADA accreditation. Thus there was the argument that if he'd been tested by a different lab, he'd have not tested positive.

    Could be wrong here, though.

    What you say is correct.

    I don't know this for a fact, but I would guess that to gain a performance advantage from clenbuterol you would need more of it in your system than you would get from a contaminated steak. On the basis that contaminated steaks aren't performance enhancing I would solve the problem by bringing in a threshold. Note that in the AC case, no one suggested it was possible to administer that amount of clenbuterol deliberately, so a threshold at that level would not really allow pros to go wild.
  • squiredsquired Posts: 1,153
    Looking at the start list from China and the team for the Japan Cup, the five riders (including Rogers) in Japan also raced in China. A big factor in pointing to what might have happened would be tests performed on any of his team mates in the two races. As none of them did anything of note as far as I remember I'd bet that none were tested though.
  • me-109me-109 Posts: 1,728
    sjmclean wrote:
    Me-109 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Interesting, I sadly think it is just plain guilty here. Is it worth thinking that maybe they were on the juice and what they did was made sure that they were seen to be eating the meat in China to give them a back up to fall back on?
    I like this, it's like some kind of double-bluff. Covering up a cover-up. Maybe it's hiding a conspiracy involving Chinese farmers and Western pork-belly traders? Perhaps they were bullied into accepting steers from a ranch in, say … ooooh, maybe Austin, where they were 'exercised' so as to be lean and 'race-fit'? Are Sky filming a programme in China or Japan? Surely we can link them all the way to the top?

    Do I need to put any smilies into this?

    Nice post.

    This is the thing about this forum now, you ask a question or make a suggestion and someone just makes some sarcastic comment that serves no purpose other than to be horrible.
    It wasn't sarcasm. I liked the thinking in the original post - I just extended it to cover the conspiracies that many seem to think are endemic in cycling. The meat/steer thing is a link both to that and to refer obliquely back to similar issues - think BSE or horse DNA. Who knows what our meat is being fed/given or even if (as per the horsey scandal) whether it really is the meat that we think it is? There is sufficient evidence of use of steroids in race horses - the same steroids used by athletes. Handy to be able to point to dodgy meat for these too, and perhaps a more-readily accepted (or less dis-provable) explanation? "I had a steak that turned out to be Shergar."
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 17,690
    RichN95 wrote:
    JUST KEEP AWAY FROM THE FREAKING MEAT WHEN IN CHINA OR MEXICO

    What is complicated about that?
    But they were given assurances. And what about Japan? Where are they getting their meat from?

    You can be as careful as you like, but mistakes will still happen. Not all countries can rely on high quality horse lasagne like us.

    One of the interesting things in the Contador case was how they found that the brother of the farmer of his steak had been convicted of using clenbuterol on his cows. This evidence wasn't allowed in the hearing on the basis that if dodgy associations were allowed Contador would have been in trouble, but the point still stands - a pro in Europe could have bought a steak from the brother during his clen farming period and would then be banned for something that is unlikely to be performance enhancing. And this is in law abiding Europe.
  • Richmond RacerRichmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited December 2013
    RichN95 wrote:
    JUST KEEP AWAY FROM THE FREAKING MEAT WHEN IN CHINA OR MEXICO

    What is complicated about that?
    But they were given assurances. And what about Japan? Where are they getting their meat from?

    You can be as careful as you like, but mistakes will still happen. Not all countries can rely on high quality horse lasagne like us.


    Rich, who is saying they were given assurances? and by whom? by the hotel? UCI and WADA have both issued warnings over the last 2 years about clen and meat products.

    According to Matt Brammeier at Tour of Beijing they were warned but plenty of riders piled into the evening meat buffet

    Just as Blazing Saddles was saying that the German track team were tucking into the meat in Mexico, despite all the advice against clen there. But the GB team (and others, probably/perhaps) werent going to risk it.

    Fact is that its still athlete's liability. Thems the rules. And with your head screwed on, wouldnt you err on the side of caution, for the sake of a few days before and during the race? After all, its you who pays the price as the athlete.

    As for Japan...well, let's see what Mick's defence is.

    Of course a mistake can happen and clen can be ingested by accident. I'm not arguing that. FWIW I'm inclined to give Mick (even with his history) the benefit of the doubt on this one, cos I cant see him doing the naughties for the poxy Japan Cup, last race of the season.

    What I am saying is, err on the side of caution.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    TheBigBean wrote:
    One of the interesting things in the Contador case was how they found that the brother of the farmer of his steak had been convicted of using clenbuterol on his cows. This evidence wasn't allowed in the hearing on the basis that if dodgy associations were allowed Contador would have been in trouble, but the point still stands - a pro in Europe could have bought a steak from the brother during his clen farming period and would then be banned for something that is unlikely to be performance enhancing. And this is in law abiding Europe.

    The funniest thing about the Contador case was cycling fans claiming that he couldn't possibly have had a dodgy steak because a) the drugs were banned and b) the cows hadn't failed drugs tests.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    Rich, who is saying they were given assurances? and by whom? by the hotel?
    I don't know. I thought I read it somewhere.

    Of course, riders are liable and Rogers will get some sort of ban regardless. But once again some people are eliminating the possiblity of someone making a mistake and reaching for the sinsister option. Yet humanity's capacity for screwing up knows no bounds.

    Recently, my hockey club went to Barcelona and everyone was repeated told about pick pockets on La Ramblas. Yet, four people still got robbed there. Warnings don't make people immune from calamity.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95 wrote:
    Rich, who is saying they were given assurances? and by whom? by the hotel?
    I don't know. I thought I read it somewhere.

    Of course, riders are liable and Rogers will get some sort of ban regardless. But once again some people are eliminating the possiblity of someone making a mistake and reaching for the sinsister option. Yet humanity's capacity for screwing up knows no bounds.

    Recently, my hockey club went to Barcelona and everyone was repeated told about pick pockets on La Ramblas. Yet, four people still got robbed there. Warnings don't make people immune from calamity.


    Ok, take your point. Let's add that his team should also have been all over this - helps to reduce risk of single point of failure (the rider)
  • mrolimroli Posts: 3,622
    Robert Millar was vegetarian wasn't he? Wasn't that because he wasn't particularly fussed about animal rights - but that he did not know what had been put into the meat (alive/dead)....
  • Coach HCoach H Posts: 1,092
    RichN95 wrote:
    Recently, my hockey club went to Barcelona and everyone was repeated told about pick pockets on La Ramblas. Yet, four people still got robbed there. Warnings don't make people immune from calamity.

    I get your point, but if they had repeatedly been told that they would be banned from playing any form of hockey for two years if they got robbed do you think you would still have your four? Different risk / reward decision, no?
    Coach H. (Dont ask me for training advice - 'It's not about the bike')
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    Didn't someone mention plasticiser found in the sample? Can't this only mean one thing?

    Why bother with the affected food argument?

    Why find it difficult to believe he was using Clen so close to the end of the season?

    He wasn't. It was from his blood bag. Or maybe he had a transfusion taken from a cow in China.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    The one thing to come out from this in my view, as I stated on a SKY (JTL I think) thread a couple of months back about a certain Mr Rogers having a rather chequered history, is that Dave B clearly doesn't have the most rigorous checks in place for hiring riders and staff. If he truly wants people to think SKY are a clean team then he needs to review this very quickly.
  • Joelsim wrote:
    Didn't someone mention plasticiser found in the sample? Can't this only mean one thing? ...

    I think they were talking about Bert.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 65,273 Lives Here
    Mr Freiburg gets done?

    Colour me surprised.
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 7,960
    Realistically, this case probably IS a case of contaminated food. But it's unlikely to be proven and therefore a ban will still be given eventually.

    I read on Velonation (Shane Stokes) that the Race Organisers had to give assurances that food served in race venues (I assume onsite or in race hotels) was 'clean' - via certificates tracing the lineage of the food.

    So while riders were warned against eating meat products while in China, they were also 'assured' that food at official venues would be 'safe'. This would explain why s many of them were tucking into it.

    The UCI/WADA warnings would apply more to food consumed outside of these areas.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 65,273 Lives Here
    Curious to see Rogers getting a different treatment to Contador on here.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    edited December 2013
    Curious to see Rogers getting a different treatment to Contador on here.
    That will be because of the well documented use of clenbuterol in the far east meat industry and the accompanying risks.

    If someone took time off work to recover from malaria they contracted on holiday, you would believe them more if they had been on holiday to Ghana than if they'd been to Benidorm
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Curious to see Rogers getting a different treatment to Contador on here.

    Indeed! Does less overall percieved success equal less less of a backlash? I dont know.

    Apologies if this has been covered but this article http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling ... -of-rogers about Cycling Australia's statement says that Rogers is not licensed by them. Anyone know who he is licensed by?
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    edited December 2013
    Using Clenbuterol in China is illegal. And in fact in 2011 someone was sentenced to the death penalty for his part in clenbuterol-tainted pork. Although there is obviously still some being used by all accounts.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    Apologies if this has been covered but this article http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling ... -of-rogers about Cycling Australia's statement says that Rogers is not licensed by them. Anyone know who he is licensed by?
    Italy I would have thought. Italian wife, Italian passport.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 65,273 Lives Here
    If it is so easy to accidentally ingest why is it still banned outright on strict liability rather than levels to preclude this kind of contamination?

    And all the same arguments crop up as with Contador. Why isn't the rest of the team testing positive? Etc
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,451
    Joelsim wrote:
    Using Clenbuterol in China is illegal. And in fact in 2011 someone was sentenced to the death penalty for his part in clenbuterol-tainted pork.
    Using Clenbuternol in cycling is illegal. And in fact in 2011 someone was sentenced to two years for his part in clenbuterol-tainted blood.

    Spot the difference.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95 wrote:
    Apologies if this has been covered but this article http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling ... -of-rogers about Cycling Australia's statement says that Rogers is not licensed by them. Anyone know who he is licensed by?
    Italy I would have thought. Italian wife, Italian passport.
    Swiss or Italian apparently. Well, at least from the AAP report.
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