Michael Rogers Positive for Clenbuterol
Comments
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The problem with the tainted meat defence - is that unless someone else tested positive from the same source, it's hard to prove. Doesn't matter how many other people may have eaten tainted meat there, if none of them were tested (or tested positive), then it becomes near impossible to prove.
And the 'source' of the tainted meat could have been fairly small. It may not even have been the entire buffet's worth of beef/pork/whatever, but just a limited amount of it, the Mick was unlucky enough to eat.
Once again, unless more positives from the same source show up, Mick will be pushing a boulder uphill on this one.0 -
dsoutar wrote:I personally think that there's a fair degree of possibility that this is a result of ingesting some contaminated meat
However even if that is the case, it may just be karma given his history
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There is certainly some element of poetic justice to all this isn't there.Correlation is not causation.0 -
I'm not feeling particularly sympathetic tbh.
He knows the rules and he knows why people are going to be sceptical and come down hard on him, especially given how he's dodged a few bullets in the past.0 -
Above The Cows wrote:dsoutar wrote:I personally think that there's a fair degree of possibility that this is a result of ingesting some contaminated meat
However even if that is the case, it may just be karma given his history
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There is certainly some element of poetic justice to all this isn't there.
The timing was fairly poetic too, he was informed just two days before his birthday (today).0 -
If indeed it does turn out that he has had a career full of doping, which I'm inclined to believe he has given all the links/possible evidence/chatter/oldpros/dodgy blood values, and he has got caught out through a mistake of some sort, be that a blood bag or simply through being stupid and going against all guidelines and eating Chinese meat, then it will help in the struggle against doping if riders feel that at some point they are going to be caught.
Unlike many of you, I still fully believe that there is a major problem with doping in cycling, albeit at a lower level than 10 years ago, and with much more science involved to ensure the blood values can be adjusted/compensated for with a bit of chemistry and knowledge.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I'm not feeling particularly sympathetic tbh.
He knows the rules and he knows why people are going to be sceptical and come down hard on him, especially given how he's dodged a few bullets in the past.
Totally agree with this.0 -
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The fact remains that as the rules stand, right or wrong, the athlete is responsible for what is in there body. So, its glaringly simple, If you are a pro athlete you must be ultra careful about what you ingest.
They flog themselves in training, for years, to get as fit as possible, so why risk it all for a kebab?????0 -
mike6 wrote:The fact remains that as the rules stand, right or wrong, the athlete is responsible for what is in there body. So, its glaringly simple, If you are a pro athlete you must be ultra careful about what you ingest.
They flog themselves in training, for years, to get as fit as possible, so why risk it all for a kebab?????
Well - if you believe that the food provided to them whilst in China via official sources (race organisers, race hotel) was supposed to have been certified to be safe and clean, then you can forgive ANYONE for believing this to be true and trusting that it was. It's not like it was just Rogers that was eating the food/meat provided there...
Now - if Mick stayed in Chaina for a few days AFTER the race on his own, before going to Japan (as he claims), then the contaminated meat may have come from an unofficial source. In which case he IS an extra-special type of fool.0 -
Which is highly unlikely on both counts I would imagine.0
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Pokerface wrote:mike6 wrote:The fact remains that as the rules stand, right or wrong, the athlete is responsible for what is in there body. So, its glaringly simple, If you are a pro athlete you must be ultra careful about what you ingest.
They flog themselves in training, for years, to get as fit as possible, so why risk it all for a kebab?????
Well - if you believe that the food provided to them whilst in China via official sources (race organisers, race hotel) was supposed to have been certified to be safe and clean, then you can forgive ANYONE for believing this to be true and trusting that it was. It's not like it was just Rogers that was eating the food/meat provided there...
Now - if Mick stayed in Chaina for a few days AFTER the race on his own, before going to Japan (as he claims), then the contaminated meat may have come from an unofficial source. In which case he IS an extra-special type of fool.
Other team mates e.g. Rory Sutherland had travelled from China to arrive in Japan by 17th, so suspect Mick - like other Saxo guys - was in China for just an extra 2 days after Tour finished.
But thats just an assumption.0 -
Pokerface wrote:mike6 wrote:The fact remains that as the rules stand, right or wrong, the athlete is responsible for what is in there body. So, its glaringly simple, If you are a pro athlete you must be ultra careful about what you ingest.
They flog themselves in training, for years, to get as fit as possible, so why risk it all for a kebab?????
Well - if you believe that the food provided to them whilst in China via official sources (race organisers, race hotel) was supposed to have been certified to be safe and clean, then you can forgive ANYONE for believing this to be true and trusting that it was. It's not like it was just Rogers that was eating the food/meat provided there...
Now - if Mick stayed in Chaina for a few days AFTER the race on his own, before going to Japan (as he claims), then the contaminated meat may have come from an unofficial source. In which case he IS an extra-special type of fool.
That's all fine and good but the fact remains, he is responsible for what he ingests. He is a pro athlete, that's how he makes his living. If he is not prepared to be careful what he eats that's his big mistake. If he is going down the contaminated food route, and no one else who did the race in China had a problem, he has no argument really.
I like the guy, but if he did eat something that is causing the problem then he is plain stupid. On the other hand if he has been doping, he is still plain stupid.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Other team mates e.g. Rory Sutherland had travelled from China to arrive in Japan by 17th, so suspect Mick - like other Saxo guys - was in China for just an extra 2 days after Tour finished.
But thats just an assumption.
The statement he put out today states he was in China until (including?) the 17th. Confirmed with Whereabouts info.0 -
mfin wrote:Also, it sometimes seems here that there are people who think of Clenbuterol as some kind of equivalent to having a 'weight watchers milkshake' for tea, it's not anything of the sort. Interestingly too, if you ask the average 'dodgy bloke' down the Gym, Clen is something that's widely known about, used, and easy to get hold of.
Not sure if this was directed at me, I certainly don't think that. Only point I was trying to make is that the main ergogenic potential lies in training (fat burn and changes to muscle function, which I missed off before) rather than on race day. It will have definate psychological benefits while competing, and attendant motivation, but my reading doesn't really support physiological benefits - i.e. they feel like they can smash it but if the musle isn't there it won't help. I'm not for a moment saying it should be allowed or ignored, but as others have said the attendant risks to win an end of season minor race (by blood boosting or PED) don't stack up.0 -
Pokerface wrote:
As someone says in their replies, if you knew WADA had said there was a danger of contamination in meat in China then why risk eating meat there?0 -
Pross wrote:Pokerface wrote:
As someone says in their replies, if you knew WADA had said there was a danger of contamination in meat in China then why risk eating meat there?
I could go the entire rest of my life without eating beef or pork again. I like both, but could do without.
I could certainly go without them for a week or 2. In fact, I normally do go without.
Now, if chicken is also at risk of carrying Clenbuterol, then I'd have a problem.0 -
Surely someone in the testing pool such as yourself should know this? Not having an in depth knowledge of global farming practices is no defence.Pokerface wrote:Now, if chicken is also at risk of carrying Clenbuterol, then I'd have a problem.
PS It's used on chickens, so you'd better get used to tofu.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Surely someone in the testing pool such as yourself should know this? Not having an in depth knowledge of global farming practices is no defence.Pokerface wrote:Now, if chicken is also at risk of carrying Clenbuterol, then I'd have a problem.
PS It's used on chickens, so you'd better get used to tofu.
Agreed. If I was to travel to a suspect country (like Mexico or China), or had been warned by WADA or some other body about the possibility of contaminated local food, I would do my homework and follow the rules. But I'm not going to swear off meat/chicken whilst living in the UK.
I wonder how athletes at the Beijing Games coped? Surely the food provided must have come with some sort of guarantee of cleanliness? As I doubt the athletes there (even the serious/paranoid ones) didn't live off tuna and tofu for 2-3 weeks.0 -
dish_dash wrote:Pross wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Same team, two riders, different counties, 3 years apart, same substance..... accidentally with food?
I thought Bertie tested positive whilst at Astana?
He did. But why let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy...
Which is my point entirely.
There is no conspiracy of tainted meat.
Two riders, two different teams, now on the same team, both with a history of being named in doping reports, 3 years apart both falling victim to the same drug in tainted meat?
You are right. There is no conspiracy.0 -
What will be interesting is the levels of Clen in Rogers urine. If he will go the meat defence then if its as low as Contador then he may have a case for a reduced sentence.
Going against Rogers is he doesn't have a test the day before or after which might then see levels diminishing etc. to suggest the meat was from China.
Contador had this but still got 2 years and results stripped.
If Rogers is higher than 50 pg/ml which is really very little then is case will be tough to fight.Contador defense.
The tests on the 19th and 20th find no trace of clenbuterol. On the 21st, the level is 50 pg/ml, it falls to 20 pg/ml on the 22nd, and then none is found on either the 23rd or 24th. Based on these findings, and the half-life of clenbuterol, it is concluded that the clenbuterol was administered (either deliberately or via food) after the 20th.0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:
Which is my point entirely.
There is no conspiracy of tainted meat.
Two riders, two different teams, now on the same team, both with a history of being named in doping reports, 3 years apart both falling victim to the same drug in tainted meat?
You are right. There is no conspiracy.
What you say makes no sense. Your arguments bear no relation to your conclusion.
Reading your logic makes my head hurt.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Timoid. wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:
Which is my point entirely.
There is no conspiracy of tainted meat.
Two riders, two different teams, now on the same team, both with a history of being named in doping reports, 3 years apart both falling victim to the same drug in tainted meat?
You are right. There is no conspiracy.
What you say makes no sense. Your arguments bear no relation to your conclusion.
Reading your logic makes my head hurt.
Which is exactly the point I'm making! There is no logic!
Rogers with a history of doping and being named in significant doping reports all of sudden tests positive for the same substance his current team-mate did 3 years earlier.
Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt that the one time he finally gave up doping he tests positive?
Boy is he unlucky!
In all seriousness. The same with JTL. You can only go on the facts. Once we know the levels of Clen in his urine it may tell us how this drug was ingested and found its way into his body.
All we really know now is he has the drug in his body. How did it get there? That we don't know. But the levels of Clen will tell what is the likely cause.0 -
whiteboytrash wrote:Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt that the one time he finally gave up doping he tests positive?
A career spent doping, only to be caught following accidental ingestion of tainted meat isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
That's how I interpret Hamilton's "Karma" tweet anyhow.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:whiteboytrash wrote:Does he deserve the benefit of the doubt that the one time he finally gave up doping he tests positive?
A career spent doping, only to be caught following accidental ingestion of tainted meat isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
That's how I interpret Hamilton's "Karma" tweet anyhow.
I don't disagree with you.
Is it possible that it was accidental? Sure it is. Probable? No so sure. The levels of Clen will tell us how likely the scenario of tainted meat really is.
On a side note if Rogers never road for Sky I think many here would send him to the dogs with Horner.0 -
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Where's the blame wiggle option on the poll?0
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60% in his career - that will be too low.Rick Chasey wrote:Surprised none of you think he was doping.
For me it's probably 60% likely he was.
At least.
60% this time - it's certainly not the most likely explanation. The drug, the timing, the location, the race - none of it really adds up. If he was doping, he's doing all wrong.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Surely someone in the testing pool such as yourself should know this? Not having an in depth knowledge of global farming practices is no defence.Pokerface wrote:Now, if chicken is also at risk of carrying Clenbuterol, then I'd have a problem.
PS It's used on chickens, so you'd better get used to tofu.
Well - just found out that the Paracycling Track Worlds are going to be in Mexico in 2014. Another hotbed of tainted meat.
So I best start doing my homework or what foods I can eat!0
