Nelson Mandela

Frank the tank

Can't believe such a man has passed by and not a mention on here.

Or are we all playing some kind of game and I've took the bait?

A man who had the choice whether to divide or unite a nation, he chose the latter.

Unlike a certain leader of this nation, and that is why their passings in their respective countries has been reflected in the response to their deaths.

He was a great man and one from we should all take inspiration. R.I.P.

Nairnster

Will this go the same way as the Paul walker thread?

After all, you cant say R.I.P. if you didn't personally know them. Apparently.

random man

They don't come any bigger than Mandela IMO, and I didn't post because I thought it would sound trite. Maybe in this case, less is more.

Mikey23

I posted on the alternative RIP thread but there wasn't a reaction. A great man indeed and an inspiration to a generation..

tim_wand

I think you ve summed it up Frank.

In comparison to a former leader who did nothing but divide the nation she "lead" having rose to a position of power and privilege, and totally forgetting her humble roots.

This was a man who had every legitimate reason to strike out against his oppressors but sought to bring unity for good of his whole nation. Such a contrast.

It is however depressing Today to see a South Africa which although no longer divided by apartheid remains fragmented and broken along the lines of power and corruption.

Hopefully his passing will make people take stock and try and remain true to his vision .

verylonglegs

random man wrote:

They don't come any bigger than Mandela IMO, and I didn't post because I thought it would sound trite. Maybe in this case, less is more.

No, you are absolutely spot on. My take on it is that whilst I like to think I fully understand what he was about and how he shaped world history I can't deny when I heard of his death lastnight I had the initial surprise factor and then my immediate thought was to avoid mainstream news channels for the next few weeks. Far too many RIP messages and tributes trying to sound like they really did know him personally and are struggling to cope for the next few days when it's really not the case. The internet is a blessing and a curse in equal measure sometimes.

dabber

The BBC are now in full "Lady Di" mode. I just have to switch off. No disrespect to Mandela. He was a controversial figure in many ways but a force for good in my opinion. But the media coverage is way over the top and cringe making.

Bozman

Seemed like a nice bloke after he was released but I don't know what he was like before the stretch, the BBC coverage is well over the top though.

carrock

This is the think most people overlook. He admitted to acts of terrorism, and however benign in his later years, however noble the cause, he presided over the terrorist wing of the ANC who committed many atrocities, before his undoubted charisma led him to become a leading political figure.

He was offered freedom by PW Botha years earlier but refused to renounce terrorism.....so yes, an admirable man in some ways but don't gloss over his past

rolf_f

Dabber wrote:

The BBC are now in full "Lady Di" mode. I just have to switch off. No disrespect to Mandela. He was a controversial figure in many ways but a force for good in my opinion. But the media coverage is way over the top and cringe making.

Quite. However important Mandela is, there is other news. Not that you'd know from the Beeb coverage. I had about an hour and a half of it on the radio last night and when I woke up this morning there was nothing but Mandelas death all over again. There's only so many times you can hear his life story. It's fortunate that nothing else important was happening eg, I don't know, the highest tides in over 50 years on the East Coast, houses being washed away, that sort of thing otherwise we wouldn't have known a thing about them.

Just so I can prepare - is there anyone else alive, aside from the Queen, who I have to try to arrange a power cut for in the 24 hours after their death?

finchy

Rolf F wrote:

Just so I can prepare - is there anyone else alive, aside from the Queen, who I have to try to arrange a power cut for in the 24 hours after their death?

David Beckham and Bruce Forsyth.

ballysmate

Well done Frank, managing to mention the Great Lady within a few lines of your thread.
Nairnster, you can say RIP about anyone you like, no one said otherwise. In fact it was people saying that more empathy should be shown, that became all indignant.
As regards Mandela, Carrock points out that SA politics and Mandela were more complicated than people care to remember.
Is he worthy of respect? Undoubtedly.
Do I mourn his passing? No, I didn't know him.

Omar Little

He was an inspirational leader but most of all was a great man - a better one than I would have been in his situation!

carrock wrote:

This is the think most people overlook. He admitted to acts of terrorism, and however benign in his later years, however noble the cause, he presided over the terrorist wing of the ANC who committed many atrocities, before his undoubted charisma led him to become a leading political figure.

He was offered freedom by PW Botha years earlier but refused to renounce terrorism.....so yes, an admirable man in some ways but don't gloss over his past

Terrorism is a loaded and emotive word.

I dont overlook Mandela's part in violent actions but at the same time I dont consider him a terrorist any more than i consider Churchill to be one for ordering and sending SOE agents to set Europe ablaze. When there isn't a democratic path to overthrow a regime (a regime that is using violence to enforce its rule) then fighting back is an act of resistance that otherwise peaceful people can be forced into.

rick_chasey

carrock wrote:

This is the think most people overlook. He admitted to acts of terrorism, and however benign in his later years, however noble the cause, he presided over the terrorist wing of the ANC who committed many atrocities, before his undoubted charisma led him to become a leading political figure.

He was offered freedom by PW Botha years earlier but refused to renounce terrorism.....so yes, an admirable man in some ways but don't gloss over his past

Untill 2001 terrorism was a little less exteme.

I believe he was a demo expert and blew stuff like power lines up.

Not killing people.

His leadership post prison also helped save many lives.

It wasn't really terrorism in the sense it provoked terror. He was helping irritate an apartheid government and focussed on the military who voilated his community on a daily basis.

crescent

i admit that I don't know enough about Mandela or South Africa to comment on the man, his life or his death. However, in a more general sense the media seem to want us to become professional mourners. I would certainly never rejoice in anyone's death but I'm afraid I can't feel genuine grief for someone unless I knew them personally - sadness maybe but not real heartfelt grief. It seems to be the norm now to have a minute silence at public events every time someone dies. It's only a matter of time before someone's funeral is interrupted for a minute's silence for someone else. I don't say this in light of Mandela's death per se, just as an observation on public grief as a whole.

BillyMansell

carrock wrote:

This is the think most people overlook. He admitted to acts of terrorism, and however benign in his later years, however noble the cause, he presided over the terrorist wing of the ANC who committed many atrocities, before his undoubted charisma led him to become a leading political figure.

He was offered freedom by PW Botha years earlier but refused to renounce terrorism.....so yes, an admirable man in some ways but don't gloss over his past

It appears that it is you who is glossing over the past by ignoring the truly appalling context of historical events and the unquestionable hypocrisy of Botha's offer.

I see no reason to mourn Mandela's death. he was 95 after all, but see reason to celebrate his life. The media have gone overboard again and the efforts at association and affiliation by political leaders like Obama, Blair and Cameron is sickening as they preside/presided over the sorts of actions both civil and military that Mandela railed against.

Silly Old Hector

Any comments on his palmares ?

mrfpb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/epi ... 06_12_2013

According to the BBC Director of News, the coverage us justified because Mandela was "the most significant statesman of the last hundred years". I think that's open to debate!

rolf_f

Listening to R4 this morning "And now, back to Nelson Mandela" - I nearly screamed. Instead I changed over to R3 where I think it will remain until someone on here can tell me it is safe to go back because they are actually broadcasting news again rather than an event that happened a couple of days ago the facts of which haven't changed at all since.

Rod Little appears to have upset the Twitter Moron brigade......

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/rod-liddle ... overdrive/

The column generated fierce criticism on Twitter, with users describing him as "odious" and "vile".

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/06/rod-liddle-bbc-nelson-mandela-spectator

Stevo_666

I am doing as a few other on here and staying away from the news as it's all a bit OTT as has been said above. Hopefully the feelings stirred up his death will help bring on change for the better in SA.

However it is good to see from this thread that a great British politician is still winding up bitter lefties from beyond her grave

mr_goo

Have been trying to avoid the news for last 48 hours, especially the BBC, who unsurprisingly have gone way over the top. Radio 5 Live were trawling the streets of Brixton on Friday to get comment from the local populace, possibly the most crass geographic area to pick. Most of those interviewed overused the word 'like', and not in its correct context. One had never heard of apartheid!

rjsterry

The frenzy of past and present world leaders (left and right) eager to grab a bit of reflected glory is not particularly edifying. Quite interesting to see various people claim that behind the scenes Thatcher was pushing for Mandela to be released. Difficult to tell whether it was just wilful revisionism or not.

briantrumpet

Rolf F wrote:

Listening to R4 this morning "And now, back to Nelson Mandela" - I nearly screamed. Instead I changed over to R3 where I think it will remain

Radio 3 news is just about the only news broadcasts I can cope with ever. On the odd occasions when I happen to be somewhere where someone's got the TV news on, I just want to kick the TV in. I think that as a nation we would be happier and more rational if they got rid of TV news. I sometimes wonder if Facebook gives a more balanced view (depending on who your friends are).

And anyway, The Day Today spoilt it for me. It did a brilliantly surgical dissection of TV news as a wing of the entertainment industry: the more death, destruction and misery they show, the more glee you can see hiding behind those mock serious tones.

Just switch the crap off.

Right. I feel better now. Thanks for listening.

mamba80

Great man? as head of MK he ordered the deaths of many in bombing campaigns, he alleviated the poverty of his family and friends first, spent an absolute fortune on "defence" and was a great friend to Mugabe - that well known democratic across the border.

What I would say is that despite all this he avoided a blood bath in SA due to truth and reconciliation and for that he and de klerk, are rightly revered.

MichaelW

I wonder if Private Eye is brave enough to poke fun at this particular mourn-fest. Typically they trot out a new version of their Diana commemorative bad-taste plate.
At least football fans showed their respect by several minutes of respectful silence at all games before usual business resumed. You have to respect them, they do know how to respect the most respected man on earth.

Frank the tank

mamba80 wrote:

Great man? as head of MK he ordered the deaths of many in bombing campaigns, he alleviated the poverty of his family and friends first, spent an absolute fortune on "defence" and was a great friend to Mugabe - that well known democratic across the border.

What I would say is that despite all this he avoided a blood bath in SA due to truth and reconciliation and for that he and de klerk, are rightly revered.

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter and all that. However SA is now no neaven but one thing for sure, I believe without a man of Mandela' vision and thought, SA would have become a bloodbath and a nation on its way to desolation.

mrfpb

Frank the tank wrote:

However SA is now no neaven but one thing for sure, I believe without a man of Mandela' vision and thought, SA would have become a bloodbath and a nation on its way to desolation.

Indeed, criticisms of SA seem to be implicitly based on comparisons to our European democracies. Compare it (in context) to other post-colonial African states and it looks like a massive success story.

ballysmate

mrfpb wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

However SA is now no neaven but one thing for sure, I believe without a man of Mandela' vision and thought, SA would have become a bloodbath and a nation on its way to desolation.

Indeed, criticisms of SA seem to be implicitly based on comparisons to our European democracies. Compare it (in context) to other post-colonial African states and it looks like a massive success story.

Perhaps so. But what does that say for the rest of Africa?

mrfpb

There's too much that could be said about Zimbabwe, Sudan, DR of Congo to write here. It would put Mandela and De Klerks achievement in context. Just to single out one example, Mandela could have been President until last Thursday if he chose, but he chose to retire after one term and peacefully hand over power. This as a rare thing on the African continent.

mamba80

MichaelW wrote:

At least football fans showed their respect by several minutes of respectful silence at all games before usual business resumed. You have to respect them, they do know how to respect the most respected man on earth.

this made me laugh.... I doubt many footie fans had even heard of Mandela, the former SA president...assuming the Mandela in question was a former Chelsea player who had recently died due to a cocaine overdose.

ballysmate

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... hrist.html

Please ignore the nonsense headline and read the body of the piece. It shows how we can know so little about anyone even though they are probably the most famous man in the world.
This isn't an anti Mandela post, he did so much after his release to unite SA, but he was certainly no saint, but undoubtedly a consummate politician.