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David Millar announces retirement after 2014 season.

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  • clantonclanton Posts: 1,287
    Rayjay there has in fact been a very good reply to your comments - the key lies in the fact that Millar has publicly repented and his actions following his return appear to indicate that he has genuinely in fact repented. This is in stark contrast to numerous other convicted dopers. Armstrong's "confession" came across in the manner you describe - a man trying to salvage what he could in a cynical and not truly repentant way. As to whether Millar does feel genuine remorse only he knows for sure. Many feel he does and are therefore prepared to forgive.
  • dsoutardsoutar Posts: 1,746
    rayjay wrote:
    dsoutar wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Don't feed the Troll. :lol:

    Yup - ignored my own advice (see elsewhere). I think attention seeking child is a better description than troll tbh

    Instead of trying to belittle the points I make . How about actually trying to respond to them.

    I've read through many of your posts on this forum. In this thread as well as the many of the others you have posted in there have been numerous attempts to respond to your comments; many in a reasoned, well thought out and dispassionate manner yet you have chosen to dismiss or ignore them.

    That is why I'm not going to waste my time responding as you suggest because regardless of what content or argument I provide it will be futile.
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    clanton wrote:
    Rayjay there has in fact been a very good reply to your comments - the key lies in the fact that Millar has publicly repented and his actions following his return appear to indicate that he has genuinely in fact repented. This is in stark contrast to numerous other convicted dopers. Armstrong's "confession" came across in the manner you describe - a man trying to salvage what he could in a cynical and not truly repentant way. As to whether Millar does feel genuine remorse only he knows for sure. Many feel he does and are therefore prepared to forgive.

    I'm not actually bothered that Millar doped. I do not like his hypocritical holier than thou attitude. I have stated my reasons. Agree to disagree. Cheers
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    dsoutar wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    dsoutar wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Don't feed the Troll. :lol:

    Yup - ignored my own advice (see elsewhere). I think attention seeking child is a better description than troll tbh

    Instead of trying to belittle the points I make . How about actually trying to respond to them.

    I've read through many of your posts on this forum. In this thread as well as the many of the others you have posted in there have been numerous attempts to respond to your comments; many in a reasoned, well thought out and dispassionate manner yet you have chosen to dismiss or ignore them.

    That is why I'm not going to waste my time responding as you suggest because regardless of what content or argument I provide it will be futile.

    You have responded, sort of. What me or you think of about Millar comes down to opinion and they way you or I see things.
    You cannot say I'm wrong anymore than I can say your wrong. I gave my reasons. Those come from facts. We know lots of Garmin riders doped and I do not believe that Millar knew nothing about their past doping antics. IMO If he knew then he should have said something. He has or had financial interest in the team. The fact that the Garmin team was started as ethical anti drug team in my mind leaves a bad taste and Millar his a big part of that team.
    Its just my opinion and I'm sure you will see it a different way.
    cheers rayjay
  • heavymentalheavymental Posts: 2,020
    rayjay wrote:
    dsoutar wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    dsoutar wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Don't feed the Troll. :lol:

    Yup - ignored my own advice (see elsewhere). I think attention seeking child is a better description than troll tbh

    Instead of trying to belittle the points I make . How about actually trying to respond to them.

    I've read through many of your posts on this forum. In this thread as well as the many of the others you have posted in there have been numerous attempts to respond to your comments; many in a reasoned, well thought out and dispassionate manner yet you have chosen to dismiss or ignore them.

    That is why I'm not going to waste my time responding as you suggest because regardless of what content or argument I provide it will be futile.

    You have responded, sort of. What me or you think of about Millar comes down to opinion and they way you or I see things.
    You cannot say I'm wrong anymore than I can say your wrong. I gave my reasons. Those come from facts. We know lots of Garmin riders doped and I do not believe that Millar knew nothing about their past doping antics. IMO If he knew then he should have said something. He has or had financial interest in the team. The fact that the Garmin team was started as ethical anti drug team in my mind leaves a bad taste and Millar his a big part of that team.
    Its just my opinion and I'm sure you will see it a different way.
    cheers rayjay

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of the team wasn't it? That there were riders who had doped in the past and they set out to show they could compete clean? I thought they had been very clear about that a few years back?

    The thing you don't seem to be able to accept is that people like Millar partly because they watched him make a mistake and then watched him repent and come back to make a positive (not a pun) contribution to the issue. Not everyone is as black/white as you, rayjay. I don't mean this as an insult but I think you might be autistic? You don't seem to realise that for many people, human relations are a little more complicated than your own approach. Can you see the difference between Armstrong and Millar (not the comedians) and their doping experience? Would you say you understand empathy as a concept? Can you give us an example of an individual you feel has made a mistake and a circumstance where you have or might forgive that person? You're in a desert walking along in the sand when you see....

    http://www.devo.com/bladerunner/sector/ ... ation.html

    f4264fvlcsnap741.jpg
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    Heavy mental

    None of the riders at Garmin i.e. DZ .CVC TD .etc etc owned up to doping until the Armstrong case blew open.
    Not even JV. You are wrong on that point and that is quite a significant point.
    Unlike you I am a human being who can show empathy and can accept a different point of view. You need some empathy after that post.
    you should be :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,659
    RayJay makes some fair points. Millar may have repented but has he actually done anything that has gone against his own interests? Has he given evidence against former team mates for example? Did he really see nothing at Saunier Duval?

    He doped and he was caught - In many ways I like him as a rider but in terms of the doping issue morally he stands on no higher ground than any other doper (except maybe DiLuca, but who doesn't).
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    He doped and he was caught - In many ways I like him as a rider but in terms of the doping issue morally he stands on no higher ground than any other doper (except maybe DiLuca, but who doesn't).

    It's possible to agree with that - and I suspect Millar would too - and still admire the many times he spoke in favour of clean cycling, making it easier for other riders to do the same.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • heavymentalheavymental Posts: 2,020
    Fair enough. I was under the impression that they had been very open about doping or maybe I was just thinking that they had been sure to present themselves as a clean team going forward with an anti doping and rider support policy?

    Re Millar not doing anything against his own interests... My view on this is that anyone caught doing something wrong would not necessarily want to grass up all his colleagues who no doubt he was close to. In his position I think I would have done the same. If you get caught stealing doughnuts in the office, would you then reveal all the other people you know who had also stolen doughnuts? I think the term 'Omerta' get overused and seems to overlook basic human behaviours. Don't grass up your mates is a simple rule I learnt at school. I think he did well to talk about the issue and be a positive voice for change in the peleton rather than just implicate everyone he knew to be involved and make a heap of enemies. It's not a 'holier than thou' attitude imo and having been on the rollercoaster, he seems in a better position than many to comment on it and suggest ways forward.

    At the end of the day, some people will forgive him for doping and some will not. Some want life bans where others don't. My view is that he has more to offer as a rider that has started clean, been through the up and downs of his own career and of the pro peleton generally, and emerged with something to say about the whole thing. Plus I think he's a nice bloke. The only question mark for me is the Landis comments which I don't quite understand where he was coming from. But given everything else that he has done, I'm happy not to worry about it. For others, that will be another stick to beat him with because you just don't like the fella and that's fine if you feel that way.
  • mrolimroli Posts: 3,622
    Good piece by Neal Rogers - first essay up in The Cycling Anthology Part 3 "The Curious Case of the Garmin 3" on "forgiving" penitent dopers...
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,380
    I have to agree with Rayjay on this one. My personal belief is that there are too many people in the world who know what they are doing is wrong, plead ignorance when caught, write a book, do the media rounds and become a paid expert on the indiscretion.

    Meanwhile, the people who played by the rules never made it, because they were trying to compete in a rigged game.
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    FocusZing wrote:
    I have to agree with Rayjay on this one. My personal belief is that there are too many people in the world who know what they are doing is wrong, plead ignorance when caught, write a book, do the media rounds and become a paid expert on the indiscretion.

    Meanwhile, the people who played by the rules never made it, because they were trying to compete in a rigged game.

    Yes that is fine, but Millar did not plead ignorance when caught, he fessed up, took his punishment and returned on a strictly anti doping stance. As for grassing up your mates, to use a phrase.....Its your word against theres, in effect.This is less likely to happen, look what happened to anyone who spoke out against Armstrong. The only way a doper can really do any good is to out the source of there PEDs, suppliers, doctors etc. Breaking the chain if you like.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    Garmin's policy was pretty clear guys...

    It doesnt matter what you did before, when you come here you ride clean, you confess everything you have done and you know to the team (to JV basically) and JV will encourage you to go on the record and come clean.

    Comparing Millar to Bertie, Valverde, Vino or Di Luca is taking a very simplistic view at best. He (says) had stopped doping when he was caught and the syringes were left over or "souveniers" (yes, I know...)

    Yes he did see stuff at Saunier Duval and he wrote a letter to the UCI saying exactly what he saw...funnily enough nothing was done about it.

    What Millar and JV did was to start a process whereby talking about doping in cycling was not considered to be the wrong thing. People forget, but talking about doping in cycling in the late 90's/early 20's got a similar response to Tennis, football or rugby does now.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    Mike6 ...Yes that is fine, but Millar did not plead ignorance when caught, he fessed up, took his punishment and returned on a strictly anti doping stance. As for grassing up your mates, to use a phrase.....Its your word against theres, in effect.This is less likely to happen, look what happened to anyone who spoke out against Armstrong. The only way a doper can really do any good is to out the source of there PEDs, suppliers, doctors etc. Breaking the chain if you like.[/quote]

    Millar could not plead ignorance. as you can read below. He had no choice.

    Millar was eating in a restaurant in Bidart, near Biarritz, on 23 June 2004 when he was approached by three plainclothes policemen of the Paris drug squad[citation needed] at 8.25pm.[14] They took Millar's watch, shoelaces, jewellery, keys and phone.[21] After two and a half hours they found empty phials of Eprex, a brand of the blood-boosting drug EPO, and two used syringes.[14][n 3] Millar said he had been given them as a gift at the Tour of Spain, that he had taken them to Manchester and used them. After that he had kept them as a souvenir.[21] The detectives took Millar to the prison in Biarritz and put him alone in a cell.[21]

    Heavymental .Just move on do we? No apology for calling me autistic? which is offensive in so many ways.
    I think in future take a breath and think about what you are posting.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    Bertie, Valverde, Vino or Di Luca all had positive tests but you ll notice that they re all still pleading innocence. Spot the difference?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    ddraver wrote:
    Garmin's policy was pretty clear guys...

    It doesnt matter what you did before, when you come here you ride clean, you confess everything you have done and you know to the team (to JV basically) and JV will encourage you to go on the record and come clean.

    Comparing Millar to Bertie, Valverde, Vino or Di Luca is taking a very simplistic view at best. He (says) had stopped doping when he was caught and the syringes were left over or "souveniers" (yes, I know...)

    Yes he did see stuff at Saunier Duval and he wrote a letter to the UCI saying exactly what he saw...funnily enough nothing was done about it.

    What Millar and JV did was to start a process whereby talking about doping in cycling was not considered to be the wrong thing. People forget, but talking about doping in cycling in the late 90's/early 20's got a similar response to Tennis, football or rugby does now.

    Very well put. But the fact his JV did not come clean about his own doping until the Armstrong case exploded.
    What is the point of a known doper confessing to another known doper? The poop has to come out into the open for anything to be done. Garmin were living and riding a lie. Millar almost became the diversion. As said previously no one at Garmin owned up to anything until they got busted and put in a position where they had no choice.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    Oh come on, JV hinted enough about it. He was a not very well off ex domestique going up against a super rich Alpha who had money and lawers to burn. What good would have come from JV telling the Armstrong tale 2/3 years earlier?

    Nothing! a massive court case and no USADA as the riders would have been too terrified of financial ruin to talk.

    Garmin were the opposite of living a lie, they were totally open about what they were doing. Hincapie, Zabriskie, Leipheimer and VDV were all perfectly happy living their lie until JV and USADA encouraged them to come clean.

    Seriously, go and read Millar's book, it's all in there
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rayjay wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Garmin's policy was pretty clear guys...

    It doesnt matter what you did before, when you come here you ride clean, you confess everything you have done and you know to the team (to JV basically) and JV will encourage you to go on the record and come clean.

    Comparing Millar to Bertie, Valverde, Vino or Di Luca is taking a very simplistic view at best. He (says) had stopped doping when he was caught and the syringes were left over or "souveniers" (yes, I know...)

    Yes he did see stuff at Saunier Duval and he wrote a letter to the UCI saying exactly what he saw...funnily enough nothing was done about it.

    What Millar and JV did was to start a process whereby talking about doping in cycling was not considered to be the wrong thing. People forget, but talking about doping in cycling in the late 90's/early 20's got a similar response to Tennis, football or rugby does now.

    Very well put. But the fact his JV did not come clean about his own doping until the Armstrong case exploded.
    What is the point of a known doper confessing to another known doper? The poop has to come out into the open for anything to be done. Garmin were living and riding a lie. Millar almost became the diversion. As said previously no one at Garmin owned up to anything until they got busted and put in a position where they had no choice.


    Ok, Ray. A couple of things for you to know. I doubt it will make a shred of difference to you as your views on everything seem to be 100% entrenched, but anyway..

    Vaughters was talking to Tygart way before Landis blew the whistle in 2010. Anyone who's followed Vaughters and his interviews and publised articles over the years, has known he doped early in his career.

    Garmin guys didnt get 'busted' as a matter of fact. None of them were subject to subpeonas by Novitsky and the FDA. Unlike with Hincapie and Hamilton, for example, testimonies were provided voluntarily - without the threat of a badge and gun across the table. The Garmin guys from Vaughters to CVV, DZ and Tommy D spoke voluntarily to Novitsky and Tygart. Neither was Andreas Klier who confessed a couple of months ago to his doping past as a rider on European teams, subpeona'd or 'busted'.

    You do know that Tygart and USADA 'invited' a lot of other people to come in to talk to them, who refused? And that USADA dont have the powers of the FDA, they cant force them to talk to them? One example of someone who received the invite and refused, is Horner. Another is Kevin Livingstone. I believe another is Chris Carmichael.

    If you want to read the account of how it all played out with the Garmin statements...if you do actually care about opening your mind to understand the full story rather than just stick to your idea of what happened...then buy the lastest edition of Cycling Anthology and read 'The Curious Case of the Garmin Three'.
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    rayjay wrote:
    Mike6 ...Yes that is fine, but Millar did not plead ignorance when caught, he fessed up, took his punishment and returned on a strictly anti doping stance. As for grassing up your mates, to use a phrase.....Its your word against theres, in effect.This is less likely to happen, look what happened to anyone who spoke out against Armstrong. The only way a doper can really do any good is to out the source of there PEDs, suppliers, doctors etc. Breaking the chain if you like.

    Millar could not plead ignorance. as you can read below. He had no choice.

    Millar was eating in a restaurant in Bidart, near Biarritz, on 23 June 2004 when he was approached by three plainclothes policemen of the Paris drug squad[citation needed] at 8.25pm.[14] They took Millar's watch, shoelaces, jewellery, keys and phone.[21] After two and a half hours they found empty phials of Eprex, a brand of the blood-boosting drug EPO, and two used syringes.[14][n 3] Millar said he had been given them as a gift at the Tour of Spain, that he had taken them to Manchester and used them. After that he had kept them as a souvenir.[21] The detectives took Millar to the prison in Biarritz and put him alone in a cell.[21]

    Heavymental .Just move on do we? No apology for calling me autistic? which is offensive in so many ways.
    I think in future take a breath and think about what you are posting.[/quote]




    I am well aware of how Millar was caught, I can also read, I said after he was caught. He did not try to blame his mate, or his dog or his mother in law. He took it on the chin. He did not say "Everyone is doing it" he said I did it and it was wrong It was my fault and only my fault.

    Also, you may want to take on board the advice you give in your last sentence. Could it be the confrontational, troll like tone of your posts that makes others respond the way they do?
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    Mike6 ,,,I am well aware of how Millar was caught, I can also read, I said after he was caught. He did not try to blame his mate, or his dog or his mother in law. He took it on the chin. He did not say "Everyone is doing it" he said I did it and it was wrong It was my fault and only my fault.

    Also, you may want to take on board the advice you give in your last sentence. Could it be the confrontational, troll like tone of your posts that makes others respond the way they do?[/quote]

    Rayjay ,,,Why have you got your back up? I posted that to clarify the way Millar got caught, It was not a personal diss on you. I don't disagree with the point about Millar taking it on the chin. We both agree with that :D
    So your smart ar%e remark is not called for and not needed. Its only confrontational if you want to take it that way. It's just a difference of opinion.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    No you are! :roll:
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mike6mike6 Posts: 1,199
    rayjay wrote:
    Mike6 ,,,I am well aware of how Millar was caught, I can also read, I said after he was caught. He did not try to blame his mate, or his dog or his mother in law. He took it on the chin. He did not say "Everyone is doing it" he said I did it and it was wrong It was my fault and only my fault.

    Also, you may want to take on board the advice you give in your last sentence. Could it be the confrontational, troll like tone of your posts that makes others respond the way they do?

    Rayjay ,,,Why have you got your back up? I posted that to clarify the way Millar got caught, It was not a personal diss on you. I don't disagree with the point about Millar taking it on the chin. We both agree with that :D
    So your smart ar%e remark is not called for and not needed. Its only confrontational if you want to take it that way. It's just a difference of opinion.[/quote]

    "Smart ar%e remark". I rest my case. :lol:
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    mike6 wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    Mike6 ,,,I am well aware of how Millar was caught, I can also read, I said after he was caught. He did not try to blame his mate, or his dog or his mother in law. He took it on the chin. He did not say "Everyone is doing it" he said I did it and it was wrong It was my fault and only my fault.

    Also, you may want to take on board the advice you give in your last sentence. Could it be the confrontational, troll like tone of your posts that makes others respond the way they do?

    Rayjay ,,,Why have you got your back up? I posted that to clarify the way Millar got caught, It was not a personal diss on you. I don't disagree with the point about Millar taking it on the chin. We both agree with that :D
    So your smart ar%e remark is not called for and not needed. Its only confrontational if you want to take it that way. It's just a difference of opinion.

    "Smart ar%e remark". I rest my case. :lol:[/quote]

    I hope so :lol:
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,605
    If you lot are going to argue incessantly, at least sort your quoting out so the rest of us can follow it :roll:
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Ha ha... too many quotes on here. I get lost.
  • heavymentalheavymental Posts: 2,020
    By the way rayjay. I give up. I can't be arsed to read through all the times you've interpreted Millar's behaviour as underhand, hypocritical or deceptive when I have thought he's been pretty straight up and I'm not going to go and read through all his historical statements and comments. You obviously feel he's a complete fraud and I feel that he's a decent guy. I think it all comes down to the interpretation of someones behaviour. I like the guy, but not enough to piece together a defence for him on a forum. Also I can't be arsed to look up and quote some of your awful posts that made me call you autistic. I'm going to just leave the conversation without explanation or apology, just like that.

    I have bigger problems today. My first attempt at baking bread has been unsuccessful. I took it out of the oven and let it cool and then sliced it to find it was still very doughy. I stuck it back in the oven and am waiting to see if the extra 15 minutes has sorted it. In the meantime I've bought a baking thermometer off ebay which could take up to a month to arrive from china but was significantly cheaper than the alternatives. My carrot cake attempt last week was also undercooked and I'm blaming my fan oven for browning off the top before the cake/bread is fully done inside. A very frustrating experience given the cost of some of the ingredients. Now I'm going to roast some veg for dinner and maybe serve with a friend egg. It's been that kind of day.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    You always need to turn up fan ovens 20 degrees don't you?!?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,208
    ddraver wrote:
    You always need to turn up fan ovens 20 degrees don't you?!?

    DOWN (or am I missing a joke?)
  • heavymentalheavymental Posts: 2,020
    ddraver's obviously trying to sabotage my loaf. Extra 15 mins seemed to do the trick although seemed like a lot of work for 1 small loaf and a lot of waiting for the dough to double in size too.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 21,919
    Eh? No....

    If that's wrong then its a genuine mistake. We have a typical dutch combi oven though and the fan setting is totally useless so maybe it's just my oven...?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
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