Would higher gears help me HTFU?

chrisaonabike

As someone that finds all this talk of "there aren't any serious hills in England" as unhelpful as fcuk, here's my 2p's worth.

I started on a 12-28, my knees were hurting.

I changed to a 12-30, my knees stopped hurting, and I started enjoying hills more, so I took on more hills. Mostly I would spin (slowly) up them on 34/30.

Now I'm finding that on some of my most familiar hills, my cadence is a little high for comfort at the speed I want to go, so guess what? Yes, I change up. Obviously, in due course if I carry on improving, I may find that I don't need 30T at the back any more, or I may not.

It seems to me that the simple answer is just to pedal faster if you want to go faster, and if that means you can change up, then change up.

Much like on the flat.

whoof

Consider a triple chainset. In the winter I run a 39/52 and a 12-25 and can get up most hills on the reasonably comforatably on this. But by also having a 30 inside ring if you hit a really steep hill at the end of a long ride or just feel like spinning it's there. For some strange psychological reason it's alway a different choice opting to use the stand-by small chain-ring than simply moving to a larger sprocket on the rear.
Just a thought.

dwanes

Everyone Stop! I think people need to go back to the OP's Question and read it thoroughly.

He is spinning up hills fine, no problems. He just wants to go faster. The only way to do this is by dropping a cog form 30 teeth down to whatever. That is why I am suggesting he changes his cassette and, in turn, will Force him to push harder in the short turn build up his leg strength and then long term can spin in that very same gear.

Giving easier gears will just make it easier for the OP (or anyone) to 'cop out'

markhewitt1978

dwanes, that's right, thanks for the summary

markhewitt1978

whoof wrote:

Consider a triple chainset. In the winter I run a 39/52 and a 12-25 and can get up most hills on the reasonably comforatably on this. But by also having a 30 inside ring if you hit a really steep hill at the end of a long ride or just feel like spinning it's there. For some strange psychological reason it's alway a different choice opting to use the stand-by small chain-ring than simply moving to a larger sprocket on the rear.
Just a thought.

I see exactly what you are saying here. You have the middle and big rings for 'normal' stuff, but the 'get out of jail' option is still available. I've been doing something similar trying to stay in the big ring, as it's quite different psychologically than being in the little ring and the middle of the cassette which is the same gear.

However switching to a triple would cost several hundred pounds, so it's out of the question

zardoz

No one has mentioned losing some weight

trek_dan

dwanes wrote:

Everyone Stop! I think people need to go back to the OP's Question and read it thoroughly.

He is spinning up hills fine, no problems. He just wants to go faster. The only way to do this is by dropping a cog form 30 teeth down to whatever. That is why I am suggesting he changes his cassette and, in turn, will Force him to push harder in the short turn build up his leg strength and then long term can spin in that very same gear.

Giving easier gears will just make it easier for the OP (or anyone) to 'cop out'

Thats assuming he can ride with the same cadence in a higher gear, which from the sounds of the post he can't. All riding up climbs in a big gears going to do is knack your knees. Also assuming that the limiting factor is leg power rather than CV fitness, which I would suggest isn't the case. I may be biased because I train in County Durham and know most of the climbs, but doing them on a 25 isn't going to help. Although it does depend on what your perspective of what a 'climb' is.

bernithebiker

Alternate standing and sitting.

On Alpe d'Huez I would be out of the saddle for about a third of the time.

Spinning in say 34-25, then drop it 3 or 4 gears to 34-18 and stand for a while.

Takes practice though, and I know some people hate getting out of the saddle.

chrisaonabike

dwanes wrote:

That is why I am suggesting he changes his cassette and, in turn, will force him to push harder in the short turn build up his leg strength and then long term can spin in that very same gear.

Fair play if this approach works for the OP. As a generalisation I think it's really bad advice, and it certainly wouldn't have worked for me - I was already at my limit with 34/28, with pain that was getting worse. Maybe I'd have been injured and had to give up if someone had said 'just push harder' and I'd paid any attention.

Pushing less hard at a higher cadence has increased my fitness - and speed - and now I don't have to always change on to the 30T.

As I say, the approach might work for the OP if he's already fit and strong enough, but just CBA. As for me, I'm already motivated to go faster, so pretty much every ride is already a max effort TT. It seems to be working, albeit gradually, and not being injured is pretty cool too.

styxd

trek_dan wrote:

dwanes wrote:

Everyone Stop! I think people need to go back to the OP's Question and read it thoroughly.

He is spinning up hills fine, no problems. He just wants to go faster. The only way to do this is by dropping a cog form 30 teeth down to whatever. That is why I am suggesting he changes his cassette and, in turn, will Force him to push harder in the short turn build up his leg strength and then long term can spin in that very same gear.

Giving easier gears will just make it easier for the OP (or anyone) to 'cop out'

Also assuming that the limiting factor is leg power rather than CV fitness, which I would suggest isn't the case

I don't think you can have one without the other.

styxd

zardoz wrote:

No one has mentioned losing some weight

Yeh, tha's the best way/weigh.

How heavier are you?

dwanes

If there is a chance of the OP knackering his knees then I suggest taking it one step at a time when changing cassette from a 30 tooth, i.e . to a 28, not straight down to a 25.

MartinB2444

Mark, are you using a heart rate monitor? If you are taking the easy option with the 30 sprocket then you will see a fall in your heart rate. If your heart rate stays the same, even allowing for lack of precision of HRM, you are maintaining the same effort but keeping a high cadence. If you ever look at a cadence thread you will see people claiming 100+ as a norm, I don't know if they are the same people who advice grinding a big gear up a long climb! What works for Joe Bloggs isn't necessarily good advice for you. If you are 8 stone and 4% body fat then long out of the saddle stints may work for you. But if you are a bigger guy and of all round ample proportion then standing isn't going to do you any favours at all going up a long hill

On a long hill you are working aerobically most of the time. This has nothing to do with leg strength, your muscles give out because of lactic acid build up. It is cardiovascular fitness that's required. On shorter climbs, getting over a ramp or pushing hard at the end, leg strength may come into the equation more.

Some turbo trainers e.g. tacx allow you to set a fixed wattage, the resistance increases with lower cadences and vice versa. This is a great way of finding your optimum cadence if you do this whilst monitoring heart rate. For me, and this may not apply to you, I used to be most efficient at around 75 but this has now climbed to 80+ so although I've got fitter I'm still using the same gears but pedaling faster.

As has been said, the way to get quicker going up hills is some form of high intensity training be it hill reps or interval sessions. Alternatively, if you make your cycling activity so unpleasant that you loose enthusiasm you might stop bothering. Another approach is the make sure you enjoy those hills!

dwanes

Deep stuff

diamonddog

dwanes wrote:

If there is a chance of the OP knackering his knees then I suggest taking it one step at a time when changing cassette from a 30 tooth, i.e . to a 28, not straight down to a 25.

^^This

housemunkey

diamonddog wrote:

dwanes wrote:

If there is a chance of the OP knackering his knees then I suggest taking it one step at a time when changing cassette from a 30 tooth, i.e . to a 28, not straight down to a 25.

^^This

Not usually one to toot my own horn but check the first page, I did suggest a 28......

But yea I agree, shocking yourself can't be healthy, gradual changes to allow you to adapt and improve must be the way.

hatch87

Just to add in on own experience. Start of the year I was struggling on some climbs near me and would run out of gears pretty quickly and toodle up them blowing out my ass. This was on a compact with an 11-28 cassette.

I've put in some miles this year and improved a lot, I now go up the same hills without even thinking about it and still have gears to choose from.

My cadence is certainly higher than most, looking at a few posts back about their cadence, I am one of the people running around 100ish but thats been the same all year, when I drop below 95, its normally when I'm dropping down a gear. Get to 105-110 and I'm going up a gear.

I don't think there's any MTFU to this, just fitness. Running a higher gear doesn't always mean faster for me, as my cadence will just drop. From that I get pooped faster which ends up with me going slower up a hill. If I do make it to the top, I'm fine if its just a 90min ride, but much more and I will start paying for it later on.

The best thing to do is find a climb near you and try it, compare your rides to see if sitting and spinning in your lowest gear is any slower than grinding up in a couple of gears higher. I tried comparing sitting and standing on a short 7% climb near me and the difference was a couple of seconds, but I know which one I felt better at the top with.

dwanes

A couple of seconds can be the difference in achieving a KOM or not!

hatch87

dwanes wrote:

A couple of seconds can be the difference in achieving a KOM or not!

True that, but I lose far more trying to catch my breath at the top which is where a handy placed bus stop full of people is, I need to get to the top looking cool not dead

goonz

dilemna wrote:

If you wear Rapha you will climb quicker and for longer.

PHAKT!

hstiles

No. Lots and lots of hill reps will help you HTFU. Your goal is to get up hills quicker in a good enough state to crack on without needing several minutes to recover. Whether the best way for you to achieve that is spinning a low gear or grinding a high gear is something you'll learn through practice .

stueys

Think it's easier, a compact 11-28 is low enough for a reasonable level of fitness, whether that be Alpine climbs, UK or whatever. Moving to that as your cassette will help you get fitter as it removes the option of bailing out, though I do think moving to a 25 would be too big a step.

I'd swap to an 11-28 and stay on it. There are specific drills you can do for leg strength which will help as will increased aerobic fitness and lifting your threshold. As someone has already said, the best way to get good at hills is to keep doing them, hill repeats work wonders.

markhewitt1978

The compromise of the 11-28 option is something to think about rather than going all in for the 25, thanks

daxplusplus

markhewitt1978 wrote:

The compromise of the 11-28 option is something to think about rather than going all in for the 25, thanks

It's what I use and it's perfect on a compact for me - also it fitted (just) my small tiagra 9 speed rear derailleur.

markhewitt1978

Been trying to put some of this into practice, still using my 12-30 cassette. I'm surprising myself just how much I can do in the big ring, standing a lot more which I'm liking.

There's one short sharp climb near home which I always dropped into 34-30 and ground my way up but I decided to shift to 34-24 and not shift down and surprised myself that I was able to climb it seated without too much trouble.

So I'm still in two minds anyway, the sensible thing I guess is stick with 12-30 and not shift down

Perhaps next year I'll change to an 11-28 cassette, as mentally it will feel good to get rid of the 30T gear, even though 34/28 is considered very low by many.

davep1

One issue with being out of the seat and this time of year is traction. I live in the softie south so most of our hills are 10-12 mins at the most, I am using a 53/39 and 12/25, and haven't yet come across a hill I can't get up. Of course, a 27 or 28 may get me up the hill faster, but I like the closeness of the teeth on the cassette as they are. Out of the saddle though I can spin the back wheel when the road is wet or the surface loose; it hasn't caused me to stop yet but am sure in these situations being able to sit down and keep the pedals turning would get round the problem. This is with a 25 mm Conti 4 Seasons S tyre, which may need replacing so I could get an improvement there.

I have read recently about a chainset combination of 53 and 36, which I will seriously investigate when my current chainset needs replacement. I wouldn't say no to a triple, but replacing a double with a triple is a major outlay.

MartAstur

Keep your 12-30! I put one on as soon as I got my new bike because It's seriously hilly where I live and I was seriously unfit. Without it I wouldn't have made it up half the climbs to begin with. However, a few months ago I realised all that stuff about high cadence was setting me back and chucking the bike on the 30 and spinning wasn't improving my times. Now I hardly ever touch the 30 (be strict with yourself) and to be honest until I start climbing ascents of more than 7% I don't even drop down to the small front ring (compact). so why keep it? For me it's nice to know it's still there and I feel I still have a way to go before I could call my self a good climber so I don't feel I should hurry to get rid of it.

Ed-tron

I've only been riding a gear, and have a fairly forgiving compact SRAM gearing 50-34, 11-32 and have been thinking in similar terms.

At the moment, I do need my easiest gears to get up some of the hills near me. If I had a harder gearing, in the short term I would go up the hill slower, as would have to muscle up instead of spinning. But I think in the longer term it would make me a stronger rider, which would also benefit me on the flats. Having less 'gaps' in my gearing would also help.

markhewitt1978

Well I put my winter wheels on (Shimano RS10), and a different cassette. I didn't go for a 25T in the end, I put on a 11-28, so just one step down from the 12-30, and proceeded to ride the hilliest route I could find (66 miles and 4,500ft climbing), was ok, the climbs were pretty tough but manageable, but I wouldn't have managed them on 34/25.

The 12-30 is still on my RS80 "summer" wheels, unsure if I'm going to keep that on there or go 11-28 on those too, having said that I've no need for higher gears so the 11T cog is pretty pointless.

markhewitt1978

Well a good time on and I'm still on 12-30 and my climbing still pretty much sucks

I was out cycling with a friend at the weekend, and we did some climbs in the Yorkshire Dales which were canny steep, he runs a triple but he revealed to me that he's only used the granny ring once, so he climbs everything in 39/28 at minimum.

Yes; he does about 20% more cycling than I do, and although he's heavier than I am he's taller so better power / weight, but I'm wondering if part of his climbing ability is that he's doing all his training using effectively a standard chainset whereas I'm using a compact with a large cassette.

Of course the way to replicate that with my setup is to fit a 12-25, but I'd still want some "get out of trouble" climbing gears, so maybe have the discipline to stick in 34/24 instead?!