Would higher gears help me HTFU?

markhewitt1978

I currently run a 12-30 cassette and did a sportive at the weekend which involved quite a bit of climbing. Which was ok but for the most part I just did my usual thing of selecting my 34/30 bottom gear and spinning up seated. However others were climbing faster and a lot of them standing which I'm not so good at.

I nearly always take the sit and spin approach and I've got to the point where I don't think it's doing me any favours in improving my hill climbing. Spoke to one guy who said he was running 39/23 and of course he bounded away from me on the next climb - with those gears he didn't have a choice!

I'm going to be swapping to my winter wheelset (no winter bike!) in a few weeks and was wondering for the winter if putting some higher gears on, perhaps an 11-25 cassette might force me to push a bigger gear. I could of course just not use the bottom two gears on my current cassette but I always wimp out and change down

Also from a technical side will I be ok running the same chain as I'm sure there will be times over the winter I want to put my 'good' wheels back on?

dwanes

I think you have answered your own question.
When I bought my most recent bike I got them to change the cassette for the same reason. No matter how much you try to resist it, you will always revert to using your easiest gear on those steep hills, and in doing so you will never build up good strength in your legs.

velvetytoast

Old school thinking was that the fixed gear in the winter was to make sure the TT guys weren't pushing too many inches - you may want to stick with what you've got and try work on a higher cadence and just ride more hills in a bigger (existing) gear - as long as the chain speeds are the same and the cassettes aren't massively worn you should be fine swapping between the wheel sets

daxplusplus

For what it's worth, in my opinion you should:

1. Ride the hills at your own pace and ignore the others.
2. Be able to measure your performance on the same hills over repeated attempts reasonably accurately (strava or similar good for this). If your not measuring your performance then it's difficult to know what works for you and what doesn't.

I found that having more gears to choose from a godsend because it meant I have the option to spin at a reasonable cadence on steep hills if I want to and basically pace myself better. It's all very well getting out of the seat and pushing on but only if you can either sustain it to the top and beyond or have an easier gear to fall back on to "rest".

But at the end of the day you do have to commit to going faster and MTFU generally - the gears should only be there as an aid to pacing and not as an easy option.

But I think you know that

cougie

You don't need to change your gears. It's up to you. Pootle up the hill and get overtaken or ride hard and attack the hill.

styxd

I'd change your cassette anyway, a 25 should give you less gaps between the cogs at the rear.

Most of the uk climbs (or at least the ones Ive done) are only short so you can crack on at the bottom and do the lot stood up (which is what a 25 will force you to do).

housemunkey

You'll be wanting that low gear at the end of a hard ride, so probably not a good idea getting rid. A cassette with a 28 might be a decent compromise but as others have said you need to want it as well. If someone comes past you maybe try and chase them down? As someone else also said strava or the like can be good to help you compete with yourself, noone wants to look soft infront of everyone else on the internet :P

daxplusplus

styxd wrote:

Most of the uk climbs (or at least the ones Ive done) are only short so you can crack on at the bottom and do the lot stood up

Really? I think your either under estimating the hills the UK has to offer or your over estimating the abilities of a large percentage of it's riders (including me).

housemunkey

Yea there are easily 20-30 minute climbs in the UK, I wouldn't want to be stood up for that kind of time. We aren't all Chris Horner.

elderone

Like the Op I run a 34/30 on one bike and a 34/32 on the other and I wouldn,t change them any time in the near future.I spend 99% of any big climb sitting and I find it easiest for me.One thing I have noticed is turning a bigger gear puts HR up which makes turning said gear harder to maintain for the climb.
Don,t worry what others are doing,you have no idea how long they been riding or what level they are at.Over time you will get stronger and even I have noticed I don't always use the biggest gear as much as I did,but I like it there to fall back on if needed.
Look for hardknott pass on utube and you will see people struggling to get up there even with triples,so don,t worry about internet heroes who fly up hills on the big ring and 23 at the back.

dwanes

The trouble is with a thread like this is that there are so many different types of riders.
Some people are happy to tootle along trying not to exert themselves and not much desire to improve other than go a bit further.
Then you have others that love to see massive improvements in performance and try and achieve a level towards that of an elite rider.
Both are going different answers to the OPs question. The OP must then think what he wants to achieve from his cycling.

Monty Dog

Its simply a case of riding more hills to develop the fitness and strength - high gears means higher workrate and greater lactate load and you'll 'blow' if you go too hard which is self-defeating. Try doing some hill-repeat sessions where you try different techniques - seated, standing, standing on drops, seated grinding - it works all the muscle groups and you'll find what's best for you.

supermurph09

styxd wrote:

I'd change your cassette anyway, a 25 should give you less gaps between the cogs at the rear.

Most of the uk climbs (or at least the ones Ive done) are only short so you can crack on at the bottom and do the lot stood up (which is what a 25 will force you to do).

Where do you live?

slowbike

OK - how about restricting your derallieur so you cannot select the bottom cog or two and try that for a ride - take a screwdriver ( you do anyway don't you?) so you can revert back if you really have too - it just means that during the ride and particularly during the hills you cannot wimp out and select the bottom cog ...
You've reminded me why I want to change my 28-11 for something a bit closer in sizes - because it's easy to wimp out.

rolf_f

Whilst I find the "MTFU, the only cassette worth having is 11-21 unless you live in the Himalayas" approach somewhat irritating, there is something to be said for trying a slightly harder cassette. In West Yorks, most weekends I use a 12-27 which is a pretty nice range (on 50-34). However, a few times lately I've gone out with a 12-25. What I notice is that subconsiously I seem to adjust to the block - I take longer to reach the 25 when riding 12-25 than 12-27. So I end up running out of spare gears at a similar time whichever block I use. And therefore I do find myself standing out of the saddle more.

Ultimately though, as long as you are maintaining a decent cadence with a decent effort then you probably aren't doing too badly.

So, unless finances are tight, and if you don't mind swapping cassettes around yourself, or you have a spare wheelset to put it on, I'd say try a harder cassette if you like. There's always flatter rides you can use it for even if you go back to the original one for the hillier routes.

Lol at most UK climbs being standout of the pedal jobs easily. About 15 minutes is the bottom end around here for something that counts as a climb of any note - many take much longer.

trek_dan

Was it Whitehorse or Hell of Hexham you did? Noticed your location. Stick with the b*tch ring in my opinion, I use an 11-28 with a compact and prefer it that way, learn to spin at a higher cadence, it takes practice but you'll be expending less energy and arrive at the top fresher. I did Whitehorse on Saturday and knocked an hour off my time from last year, nothing to do with cassette choice, just training.

dilemna

If you wear Rapha you will climb quicker and for longer.

markhewitt1978

trek_dan wrote:

Was it Whitehorse or Hell of Hexham you did? Noticed your location. Stick with the b*tch ring in my opinion, I use an 11-28 with a compact and prefer it that way, learn to spin at a higher cadence, it takes practice but you'll be expending less energy and arrive at the top fresher. I did Whitehorse on Saturday and knocked an hour off my time from last year, nothing to do with cassette choice, just training.

Hell of Hexham. I managed the climbs fine, it was just that most of the time I was spinning up it a lowish speed in bottom gear, I feel I could have been going faster in a higher gear but lacked the mental toughness to select the gear and stick with it!

I wouldn't expect to be doing Hell of Hexham on a 25 - at least not at the moment, but being for winter I'll probably be doing shorter rides on routes I know, and mostly on my own. I'd fully expect to be either putting my good wheels or my other 12-30 cassette back on if I've got an event to do.

dwanes

No Pain, No Gain!

styxd

Supermurph09 wrote:

styxd wrote:

I'd change your cassette anyway, a 25 should give you less gaps between the cogs at the rear.

Most of the uk climbs (or at least the ones Ive done) are only short so you can crack on at the bottom and do the lot stood up (which is what a 25 will force you to do).

Where do you live?

Cumbria. Guess there's probably some much longer climbs in the peaks/scotland/wales. Can't really think what the longest climb is here.

bernithebiker

dilemna wrote:

If you wear Rapha you will climb quicker and for longer.

In my experience, the opposite is true.....!

dwanes

I think when you get to a good level of fitness you realise that MOST of the hills in the uk are actually short and hold no fear.
You just need to push hard for for a year or so, forget his spinning up hills business, and build up some brute strength.
(But at the same time you have got to work within your limits otherwise you will come to a stop)

964cup

Assuming your bike is set up to run cross-chained without rubbing, try doing a club ride staying in the big ring at the front. I've been doing this recently (I have a 12-27 out back) to force myself to stand and grind rather than sit and spin. Or (another thing I've found helpful) do hill repeats on something steep but manageable, alternating big ring grind and small ring spin for the whole hill each time.

(and yes, I know that 50x27 = 34x18, that's not the point).

trek_dan

dwanes wrote:

I think when you get to a good level of fitness you realise that MOST of the hills in the uk are actually short and hold no fear.
You just need to push hard for for a year or so, forget his spinning up hills business, and build up some brute strength.
(But at the same time you have got to work within your limits otherwise you will come to a stop)

Couldn't disagree more. Sounds like your suggesting smashing up a hill as hard as you can in an inappropriate gear will improve climbing? Work on your general cardiovascular fitness and your technique by practice and hill repeats, choose whatever gear feels comfortable.

styxd

trek_dan wrote:

dwanes wrote:

I think when you get to a good level of fitness you realise that MOST of the hills in the uk are actually short and hold no fear.
You just need to push hard for for a year or so, forget his spinning up hills business, and build up some brute strength.
(But at the same time you have got to work within your limits otherwise you will come to a stop)

Couldn't disagree more. Sounds like your suggesting smashing up a hill as hard as you can in an inappropriate gear will improve climbing? Work on your general cardiovascular fitness and your technique by practice and hill repeats, choose whatever gear feels comfortable.

Yeh, well it's got to be a bit of both I think. If you're climbing the Alp D Huez then sitting and spinning in a comfortable gear for an hour is probably gonna be your best approach.

Climbing Hardknott, Wrynose etc. You can't really sit and spin. It's out of the saddle and grind away.

dwanes

trek_dan wrote:

dwanes wrote:

I think when you get to a good level of fitness you realise that MOST of the hills in the uk are actually short and hold no fear.
You just need to push hard for for a year or so, forget his spinning up hills business, and build up some brute strength.
(But at the same time you have got to work within your limits otherwise you will come to a stop)

Couldn't disagree more. Sounds like your suggesting smashing up a hill as hard as you can in an inappropriate gear will improve climbing? Work on your general cardiovascular fitness and your technique by practice and hill repeats, choose whatever gear feels comfortable.

The thing is, what may feel like an inappropriate gear in the short term will not feel inappropriate in the long term Once your strength builds up.
Totally agree about the technique by practice and hill repeats.

markhewitt1978

BTW I live in County Durham, an example of a recent ride http://www.strava.com/activities/80950335

styxd

Looking at your stats, it's probably just a case of riding more. 1800 miles for the year is not a great deal, especially if alot of that is a long ride on a Sunday.

markhewitt1978

styxd wrote:

Looking at your stats, it's probably just a case of riding more. 1800 miles for the year is not a great deal, especially if alot of that is a long ride on a Sunday.

No true, I don't really have the time to do much more; which is why I was thinking concentrating on strength might be the way to go.

styxd

markhewitt1978 wrote:

styxd wrote:

Looking at your stats, it's probably just a case of riding more. 1800 miles for the year is not a great deal, especially if alot of that is a long ride on a Sunday.

No true, I don't really have the time to do much more; which is why I was thinking concentrating on strength might be the way to go.

I think it's been discussed on here before loads of times over, but strength isn't really what you need. I think it's power and CV fitness (and probably out of the saddle technique aswell perhaps). How you get this is upto you, but twidling a little gear up a hill probably won't help you achieve it. Hammering a hard gear out of the saddle might.

slowbike

trek_dan wrote:

dwanes wrote:

I think when you get to a good level of fitness you realise that MOST of the hills in the uk are actually short and hold no fear.
You just need to push hard for for a year or so, forget his spinning up hills business, and build up some brute strength.
(But at the same time you have got to work within your limits otherwise you will come to a stop)

Couldn't disagree more. Sounds like your suggesting smashing up a hill as hard as you can in an inappropriate gear will improve climbing? Work on your general cardiovascular fitness and your technique by practice and hill repeats, choose whatever gear feels comfortable.

Comfortable?! Depends what your idea of comfortable is ... are you talking about comfort in the legs or in the heart & lungs ...
you need to train what is limiting you on a climb - I suspect for many of us it is usually the heart & lungs, but for the steeper stuff it can be the legs too.