Rear wheel will not sit straight

matt-h

Hi all,

my rear wheel does not sit straight in the frame.
This seems to have been since i have had it trued - but may be a coincidence.
Rims are Ambrosio Excellence Excelight, 105 hubs and skewers.

Last week while descending i went over a fairly flat speed hump at speed, only there was a bit of kerb sticking up that i hit - pretty lucky not to have fallen off.
There was a fairly loud crack and i crapped myself to be honest.
Pulled over and my rear wheel was out of true and the handle bars had rotated round about 2-3mm.

Dropped the wheels into my LBS to be re-trued and cleaned and checked the frame in case of any damage.
When i got the wheel back, it sits close to the chainstay on the non-drive side by the seat stay.
I have attached a couple of pics.







I used it yestersday after double checking that i had tightened the skewer and the wheel seemed to sit better after faffing with it. It still seems to have a lot of play in the dropouts before being tightened though.
By the end of the ride it had appeared to rub a little as the logo on the ultremo tyre has a black mark around it.
I could also not select the largest gear on the cassette without it fouling the spokes - didnt realise until i was nearly home as the big climb is at the end.

I will be trying my turbo wheel tonight to see if it does the same thing

Any advice?

Many thanks
Matt

imposter2.0

matt-h wrote:

I will be trying my turbo wheel tonight to see if it does the same thing

Any advice?

As you say, try another wheel. If the same thing happens, then your frame is bent.

ugo.santalucia

Your so called LBS has "cocked" the dish of the wheel. As they don't know what they are doing, they increased the tension on the NDS, pushing the rim out of centre... it is now a stronger a wheel, but one that cannot be ridden safely, as the bike wants to push you in the kerb.
You need to have it retrued by someone who knows what he is doing

Or you have damaged the frame... check with a different wheel

matt-h

Imposter wrote:

matt-h wrote:

I will be trying my turbo wheel tonight to see if it does the same thing

Any advice?

As you say, try another wheel. If the same thing happens, then your frame is bent.

Thats my big fear!

matt-h

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Your so called LBS has "cocked" the dish of the wheel. As they don't know what they are doing, they increased the tension on the NDS, pushing the rim out of centre... it is now a stronger a wheel, but one that cannot be ridden safely, as the bike wants to push you in the kerb.
You need to have it retrued by someone who knows what he is doing

A friend thinks that is the problem.
it also pinged like mad for the first couple of hundred metres.

It will be a shame if the LBS have "cocked" it up as they are the second shop that i have now lost confidence in.
Shame you are not closer Ugo :roll:

Matt

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

A friend thinks that is the problem.
it also pinged like mad for the first couple of hundred metres.

It will be a shame if the LBS have "cocked" it up as they are the second shop that i have now lost confidence in.
Shame you are not closer Ugo :roll:

Matt

I have come across a very small number of shops who can "do wheels". There is a very celebrated shop in London that even boast their hand built wheels and they are terrible...
Worth learning the basics? It's not rocket science and as someone pointed out recently in a pathetic attempt to offend me, anyone can indeed build a wheel, let alone true a wheel. There is plenty of literature on the web and a Park tool tension meter is 50-60 quid... a spoke key 5-10... a great investment, as you are into hand builts...

imposter2.0

I would be suprised if simply straightening a 2-3mm wobble would result in the wheel being completely (and incorrectly) re-dished.

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

I would be suprised if simply straightening a 2-3mm wobble would result in the wheel being completely (and incorrectly) re-dished.

Prepared to be surprised then...
Is this not a carbon frame? Carbon frames don't bend

Just noticed this bit though
"It still seems to have a lot of play in the dropouts before being tightened though."

No play before the accident?

matt-h

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I would be suprised if simply straightening a 2-3mm wobble would result in the wheel being completely (and incorrectly) re-dished.

Prepared to be surprised then...
Is this not a carbon frame? Carbon frames don't bend

Just noticed this bit though
"It still seems to have a lot of play in the dropouts before being tightened though."

No play before the accident?

i dont recall play but then i was not looking for it.
Just dropped in wheel and tightened skewer - as you do.

Matt

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Imposter wrote:

I would be suprised if simply straightening a 2-3mm wobble would result in the wheel being completely (and incorrectly) re-dished.

Prepared to be surprised then...
Is this not a carbon frame? Carbon frames don't bend

Just noticed this bit though
"It still seems to have a lot of play in the dropouts before being tightened though."

No play before the accident?

i dont recall play but then i was not looking for it.
Just dropped in wheel and tightened skewer - as you do.

Matt

You have to assess what kind of play you have... it can be hub play, meaning your cones need tightening or it can be the hub does not sit snug in the dropouts. In the latter case you do have a problem. Check the dropouts are perfectly vertical, as you might have bent one if it's not a carbon one

forward_loop

triple check your frame. I mean you said yourself - there was a load "crack" - you shouldn't have to fiddle to align the wheel in the drop outs.

matt-h

Ok. Update
Put the trainer wheel in and it seemed to line up straight.
Took it cautiously around the block and it had moved.

Pic of trainer wheel


I think the Ambrsio looks worse as it has a 25mm tyre on


This shows where the frame must have rubbed on the logo


I'm really not sure where to go from here.
Had a look over the frame and can't find anything obvious. I suppose take it to a reputable bike shop
GA cycles in Shirley Southampton have been recommended and I have had good service in the past

Matt

Ouija

Any pics of the dropouts?

matt-h

No. But can do before work tomorrow

ugo.santalucia

Sounds like damaged dropouts

matt-h

Hi all,
Bit of a delay I know :roll:

I have updated with some pics below.
I have measured the axels and dropouts and shown pictures of the dropouts




















Thoughts? A friend suggested it's possible it's always been like it and maybe the droupouts only suit the axles of the original wheels - I can believe that to be the case

Much appreciated
Matt

islwyn

I had a similar problem once, it was because I forgot to put back 1 of the 2 springs on the skewer.

rolf_f

Islwyn wrote:

I had a similar problem once, it was because I forgot to put back 1 of the 2 springs on the skewer.

Can't quite work out how that would make a difference. They don't really serve any function once the skewer is done up.

rubbernekker

A similar thing happened to my frame after about 3 years, I checked everything, frame tubes, looked for grime in the dropout itself- I even queried whether I leaned the bike over the convection heater and it had gone floppy- the manufacturer thought that was pretty funny. I Eventually came to the conclusion that I may have smacked my bike very hard through one of NZ Christchurch's epic earthquake potholes with the skewer not tight enough and 'bruised' the alu dropout by hitting it hard with the rear axle. I solved it by inserting a very small section of steel coke can into the arch of the dropout.

The thing is, my wheel was skewed in the vertical plain, so the wheel had injured the 'arch' of the dropout- yours appears to have stretched the dropout backwards.. I don't know what to do about that.

extrusion

rubbernekker wrote:

The thing is, my wheel was skewed in the vertical plain, so the wheel had injured the 'arch' of the dropout- yours appears to have stretched the dropout backwards.. I don't know what to do about that.

Get a file and have a go at the other side? May not be the answer but that's what I did to mine to straighten the wheel up.

matt-h

would it be a good idea to order a rear mech hanger and check the measurements?
Possibly a handy spare anyway?

Matt

ugo.santalucia

Are these carbon dropouts?

105 hubs have a steel threaded axle, which might have chewed the soft dropout over time, if it is a carbon one

matt-h

they are carbon dropouts.
maybe i need to sleeve the axle?
is thsi normal, seems crazy that mine would be the first.
Is it the grade of carbon?
How do i stop it happening again.

Sorry for all the Q's but i'm a little annoyed to say the least

Thanks for taking the time to look at the problem

Matt

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

they are carbon dropouts.
maybe i need to sleeve the axle?
is thsi normal, seems crazy that mine would be the first.
Is it the grade of carbon?
How do i stop it happening again.

Sorry for all the Q's but i'm a little annoyed to say the least

Thanks for taking the time to look at the problem

Matt

105 and the old Ultegra are the only hubs left on the market that use a threaded axle instead of alloy caps, so that might be the reason you don't hear of many cases... most full carbon frames are not fitted with those hubs. It is only speculations, as it is the first time I see the problem, but it seems obvious to me that carbon dropouts not only are a stupid idea, but they are bound to wear much quicker than metal ones. Carbon is "posh wood", you can sand it, you can saw it, you can do all the things you do with wood... would you use wood dropouts?

smidsy

Do bamboo bikes have bamboo dropouts?

matt-h

Right, quick update.
Last week I managed to get the wheel to sit straight by using a fair amount of force and then tighten the QR.
Success. Went round the block, fine.
Went on a 40 mile bike ride and all is fine.
went out tonight and a spoke snapped on the rear wheel - no problem one would think but it's one thing after another.
When I took the wheel of I noticed that the carbon droupouts have thread like serrations and the hanger has been tarnished.
Surely a hub should not do this and Focus provided no documentation to suggest this was a problem so could I be in a position for a warranty clam? Am I expecting to much?

Onto the wheel. Enough is enough. I need to know a decent bike shop/builder that is reasonably local to replace the spoke and give me confidence that it will be dished right and trued correctly. Anyone?

Matt

matt-h

Ok,
took my wheel to a recommended shop - GA cycles in Southampton.
They said the spoke were way long and could not get the correct tension.
They replaced the spokes with Sapim ones nad have said i should get no more problems with it.
Said the rims were very nice and trued nicely.
I suppose that would explain the nipples coming loose and a spoke breaking on 2 seperate instances.

I also mentioned the dropout probs and they said i am not the first one they have come accross.
A BMC frame just this year did the same.

I have sent better pictures to Wiggle but im not holding much hope of a decent solution

ugo.santalucia

Yes, as I mentioned previously, it looks like the hubs and QR clamp have chewed the dropouts, which are clearly made of butter...

matt-h

yeah, its gutting tbh.

Surely this is an industry error and will be looked on in a few years as stupid.
Bloody weight wars!

Matt

ugo.santalucia

matt-h wrote:

yeah, its gutting tbh.

Surely this is an industry error and will be looked on in a few years as stupid.
Bloody weight wars!

Matt

See where you get with Wiggle... they might argue you should not use hubs with a threaded axle and you might argue that it's not written anywhere... I would assume they will do something to compensate

patrickf

Completely OT, but you may want to replace the cadence magnet with a neodymium one sized big enough for the spindle of your pedals.

It didn't take long for my Garmin supplied magnet to fall off during a ride and I never bothered using theirs on my second bike. Never had a neodymium one disappear.

Cheap enough to get hold of on the bay.