Carbon or Ti

rowlers
rowlers Posts: 1,614
edited August 2013 in Road general
My lovely Fondriest TF2 1.0 has bit the dust after 2000miles.
So after seeing a few newish carbon frames cracking (3 Focus & a Cannondale) I'm starting to fall out of love with carbon & looking at Ti.
Just wondering if any one else has made the switch?
Better? worse? why & and how?
Just trying to get ideas/thoughts before I start the hunt for a new frame!

cheers

Comments

  • LegendLust
    LegendLust Posts: 1,022
    2000 miles isn't much. What's happened to the Fondriest? Is it under warranty?
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I put way more miles on my carbon frames and have no issues. Ti isn't as robust as people think and are actually more prone to frame failure...
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • rowlers
    rowlers Posts: 1,614
    LegendLust wrote:
    2000 miles isn't much. What's happened to the Fondriest? Is it under warranty?
    No warranty, unfortunately! Just cracked at the bottom bracket and then disinterested.
    @grill this is the other thing. I read that Ti is for life then I read that it is fragile.
    Dilemma...
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    rowlers wrote:
    LegendLust wrote:
    2000 miles isn't much. What's happened to the Fondriest? Is it under warranty?
    No warranty, unfortunately! Just cracked at the bottom bracket and then disinterested.
    @grill this is the other thing. I read that Ti is for life then I read that it is fragile.
    Dilemma...

    That's marketing dude. Everything breaks eventually.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Grill wrote:
    I put way more miles on my carbon frames and have no issues. Ti isn't as robust as people think and are actually more prone to frame failure...

    Says who? What do you mean by 'failure'? Evidence?

    The trouble is that responses like this are about as informed as the "carbon breaks easily" comments
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • LegendLust
    LegendLust Posts: 1,022
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    I put way more miles on my carbon frames and have no issues. Ti isn't as robust as people think and are actually more prone to frame failure...

    Says who? What do you mean by 'failure'? Evidence?

    The trouble is that responses like this are about as informed as the "carbon breaks easily" comments

    I follow Doctor D on Facebook. He posts up great photos of all the services he does. He's currently working on a Serotta Ti bike. He discovered a crack on the BB/seat tube joint that went halfway round the tube. Problem is he's taken down the photo otherwise I would have linked it (probably asked to do so by the owner or Serotta!). But the comments give you an idea of what was posted

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 293&type=1
  • Monty Dog wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    I put way more miles on my carbon frames and have no issues. Ti isn't as robust as people think and are actually more prone to frame failure...

    Says who? What do you mean by 'failure'? Evidence?

    The trouble is that responses like this are about as informed as the "carbon breaks easily" comments

    Some people think titanium is indestructible which it isn't especially the welds. Doesn't mean it's not an incredibly strong and reliable material for bike frames.
  • racingcondor
    racingcondor Posts: 1,434
    A good frame in either will do you fine, sadly there's no way of knowing if you bought a good frame apart from whether it breaks 2-4 years down the line (I'd be really annoyed if I had a frame that died as quickly as your Fondriest unless I'd treated it really badly).

    Adding to the completely useless circumstantial evidence I've got a 5 year old Condor Leggero which is as good as new (probably around 20,000 miles, 2 minor crashes and a lot of winter riding) and I complemented a guy on his lovely Ti Seven last time I raced to be told that it's been his race bike for 7 years and seen him through various crashes / racing as a 2nd Cat etc.

    Ti or Carbon won't hold you back and if you shy away from paper thin tubes should last barring cracked welds and crashes (and most companies will do you a good deal if a weld fails in a reasonable time period).

    There is a third option though... Both.

    http://www.sevencycles.com/bikes/elium-slx.php

    (EDIT - As has been hinted at the problem with Ti is that it's really hard to weld so can be prone to joins failing. Other than that though it's got some very handy properties)
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Any frame is only as good as the manufacturing processes.
    When I was deciding on which Ti frame to go for, once make was Burls. However, on all of his frames that I looked at there was a very definite thinning of the tube walls at all of the welds. Whilst I'm sure that I couldn't weld Ti any better, I do know that a thinning of the walls is due to too much heat being applied and can result in a weak tube just before the weld. Now, that's not saying that the Burls bikes are prone to failure, probably not, but it was enough to put me off and make me look elsewhere.

    I've got a Ti Enigma, which I love; it's got an 'energetic' feel to the ride. The build quality is second to none and the frame carries a lifetime warranty against manufacturing or material failure, which is good enough for me :D
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • hatch87
    hatch87 Posts: 352
    Check warranties, that's normally a good sign of how much they trust their product. A lot of bikes come with 20 years to life warranties, obviously that doesn't include crashes or rust. If they are only giving you a year warranty for frame faults, I would look else where
    http://app.strava.com/athletes/686217
    Come on! You call this a storm? Blow, you son of a bitch! Blow! It's time for a showdown! You and me! I'm right here! Come and get me!
  • ianbar
    ianbar Posts: 1,354
    personally i like ti, as much as anything i like the understated more classical look. but i do find myself eyeing up sexy carbon too. id hve a look at enigma, but possibly genesis equilibrium ti would be good option too
    enigma esprit
    cannondale caad8 tiagra 2012
  • rowlers
    rowlers Posts: 1,614
    Thanks for all the info.
    I guess I've been unlucky and got a defective frame, the crack appeared fairly early on, but put it to the back of my mind - thinking surely not!
    But it started rattling, so checked it out more thoroughly, and it was indeed cracked.
    The Tis I've looked at all have lifetime warranties so it is comforting!
    Still need to decide... I've seen a few bargain carbon frame that are very tempting, at a 3rd of the price of a Ti...
  • FatTed
    FatTed Posts: 1,205
    Lifetime warranties are no good if the company does not last a lifetime.
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    FatTed wrote:
    Lifetime warranties are no good if the company does not last a lifetime.

    Bravo :roll:
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    rowlers wrote:
    Still need to decide... I've seen a few bargain carbon frame that are very tempting, at a 3rd of the price of a Ti...

    Just bear in mind the ride quality that you're looking for. Carbon frames can range from incredibly stiff and unforgiving, to dull and lifeless, to long distance cruiser comfortable. The cheaper frames may not have had he R&D invested to make the most of the properties of carbon fibre. I guess you can say the same of Ti, but as Ti frame manufacture is a little more specialised, the level of expertise seems to be more focused.
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • rowlers
    rowlers Posts: 1,614
    My TF2 was very stiff, but seemed comfortable, my Fondriest Tech2 Alu frame is extremely stiff and rather unforgiving.
    The frame that keeps pulling me to it is the Van Nic Aquilo.
    On the Carbon front I'm quite liking either the Dolan Areas/Tuono or the Starley R1.
    But of course open to other ideas too.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    A couple of links re: the science of Ti frames

    http://www.ibiscycles.com/support/techn ... _cyclists/

    (1994 - the carbon info is way out of date but the metallurgy info is sound)

    http://thomas.pattman.net/physics/index.htm

    Interesting that Ti can only be melted in a vacuum, this means it will always be way more expensive as a material than Steel or Alu alloys. Carbon technology is advancing quicker due to high profile investment such as Formula one (and the professional cycling industry). But they don't focus on long term use - an item just needs to last for one season or event. I assume the military have some developments with long term use as a focus, but I can't google for their results

    I'd be interested to know what's the oldest carbon bike or significant component being used by a forum member - should I start a new thread?