Wheel upgrade? Aero or climbing?

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Comments

  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Fewer spokes = more lateral flex. If you are a former rugby player, you should look at more spokes rather than less. People who are happy with their 20 spoked Dura Ace 24 typically don't put many watts in the cranks. You also would benefit from a bit of profile, not much for aerodynamic reasons, but rather for the stiffness a tall rim provides... 30 mm or so is plenty.
    Rule of thumb for a powerful rider and 19-20 mm wide rim:
    35 mm + deep rim 24-28 spokes rear
    28-35 mm 28-32
    27 or less 32-36


    Some of that is undoubtedly true but not the bit about the DA CL 24, i know plenty of E/1s who have raced these wheels and had no problems with flex or anything else, including the Rapha team that raced down here once for 2K watch ! obviously they dont worry about potholes or wear.
    Im no fan of factory wheels but some are great wheelsets UNTIL something goes wrong, and to MontyDog - a good HB can easily be as good as a Fulcrum Zero or whatever factory wheel, some of the latest carbon HB's are works of art and right up with bora's etc 8) tt aside, its always the rider that is the difference.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    People who are happy with their 20 spoked Dura Ace 24 typically don't put many watts in the cranks.

    What a bizarre thing to say. You might be good at building wheels, but your social observation skills are absolute rubbish.
  • Kubotai
    Kubotai Posts: 20
    Lookyhere wrote:
    a good HB can easily be as good as a Fulcrum Zero or whatever factory wheel, some of the latest carbon HB's are works of art and right up with bora's etc 8)

    If I had the money to spare (and the right bike to put them on) I would certainly consider having a wheel built with the latest ENVE or Reynolds carbon rims. Those are amazing and build stunningly beautiful wheels.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Imposter wrote:
    but your social observation skills are absolute rubbish.

    Possibly, never claimed to be a modern days Dickens... I happily leave that role to Andrew Marr... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited August 2013
    As for weight of archetype builds. 1600g is only possible with light hubs. A build with Miche hubs, Laser spokes/brass nipples and Archetype rims in 24H/28H pattern is 1710g. To get a build dow to 1600g would require hubs that are 100g lighter at 350/pair. It is possible with Novatec A171/F172 hubs and alloy nipples/laser spokes as the weight would be 1610g. However if Race spoke/DT comps are needed on the rear then weight would go up again.

    However with the rim being as stiff and if the hub gives good bracing angles, race spokes would only be needed for a powerful rider. Howevr more spokes for very power riders is never a bad idea for durable wheels.

    Of course all this is for a build that is trying to keep the weight and cost down. This inevetabily introduces comprimises but then again buy lightweight expensive hubs introduces other comprismises for example an empty bank account.

    I had a track rider in the shop talking about wheels. His sprinting power is 1.8KW so his build will be entirley different and a 24/28 spoke build with Lasers will not do for him. Hub bracing angles for the rear is an important consideration. Ideally hub that give a NDS bracing angle of 7.5 or more degree's is useful. Increasing the bracing angle by 0.5 degree on the NDS has a bigger effect on lateral stiffnes than a 0.5 degree change on the DS, hense using 11 speed hubs are generally not an issue unless the hub manfacturer has moved the NDS flange in to preserve tension balance.

    I am rambling again.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)

    But the pros don't need their wheels to last more than a race or two. Joe Blogs while need to use their wheels for a much longer time and will be putting out alot less power than the Pros.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)

    I'll keep that in mind next time I see a PRO riding the clincher version of the DA 24... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    drlodge wrote:
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)

    But the pros don't need their wheels to last more than a race or two. Joe Blogs while need to use their wheels for a much longer time and will be putting out alot less power than the Pros.

    Do you seriously think that pro teams would risk using any wheel with (by your bizarre reckoning) a supposed life expectancy of less than a week? Get real.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)

    I'll keep that in mind next time I see a PRO riding the clincher version of the DA 24... :wink:

    Same hubs and spokes, no? Remind me where the issue is again?
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,803
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Keep in mind that the Dura Ace C24 is used in the Pro peloton. I don't think we can accuse those guys of not putting out a lot of power ;)

    I'll keep that in mind next time I see a PRO riding the clincher version of the DA 24... :wink:

    FWIW – Even up until last year Lampre team cars carried (red spoked) Racing Zero clinchers on the roof. Haven’t seen their cars up close this year but they could still be there.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Imposter wrote:
    Same hubs and spokes, no? Remind me where the issue is again?

    Different rim, full carbon instead of alloy/carbon laminate... and even there, it's mostly used by light riders for ondulated races/stages.
    To give you an idea a 250 grams carbon tubular rim is rideable even at low spoke count, I've built some... while a 350 alloy clincher rim is not.
    The C 24 tubular rims are probably 300 grams or so (guesstimate, as they are not to be seen in the flesh on the roads)
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Same hubs and spokes, no? Remind me where the issue is again?

    Different rim, full carbon instead of alloy/carbon laminate... and even there, it's mostly used by light riders for ondulated races/stages.
    To give you an idea a 250 grams carbon tubular rim is rideable even at low spoke count, I've built some... while a 350 alloy clincher rim is not.
    The C 24 tubular rims are probably 300 grams or so (guesstimate, as they are not to be seen in the flesh on the roads)

    ok, to give you an idea - I've had a set of C24s (clinchers) for about three years now. They've been in regular use throughout that time, for both training and racing. I've got no idea how much power I put out, but I've ridden them to top 10s in local 3/4 crits and hammered them up and down the local roads around here. Now, I accept that a chipper crit is not exactly the Tour of Flanders, but then I always assumned this forum was mostly amateur riders anyway. Maybe you need to re-assess your position.
  • displacedaussie
    displacedaussie Posts: 356
    And I have a pair of the RS80 clinchers and have sprinted to 3/4 race wins on them and trained on them all of this year. They're good wheels.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Imposter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Same hubs and spokes, no? Remind me where the issue is again?

    Different rim, full carbon instead of alloy/carbon laminate... and even there, it's mostly used by light riders for ondulated races/stages.
    To give you an idea a 250 grams carbon tubular rim is rideable even at low spoke count, I've built some... while a 350 alloy clincher rim is not.
    The C 24 tubular rims are probably 300 grams or so (guesstimate, as they are not to be seen in the flesh on the roads)

    ok, to give you an idea - I've had a set of C24s (clinchers) for about three years now. They've been in regular use throughout that time, for both training and racing. I've got no idea how much power I put out, but I've ridden them to top 10s in local 3/4 crits and hammered them up and down the local roads around here. Now, I accept that a chipper crit is not exactly the Tour of Flanders, but then I always assumned this forum was mostly amateur riders anyway. Maybe you need to re-assess your position.

    Maybe... but I've got guys coming over to chat wheels, the kind of rugby players in question... they put down 1200 Watt when they stomp hard on the pedals... I have seen a stainless steel freehub chewed up by the cassette splines... some amateurs are not far off Cavendish in terms of bursts of power.
    I should have probably pointed that out
    left the forum March 2023
  • DarrenGTi
    DarrenGTi Posts: 68
    Fair point. I know I've put out over 1,000kw on the turbo. I also probably weigh 10kg+ more than your average pro rider. And I know for sure I'm not a delicate rider! That said though I would like to think that the level of wheel I'm looking at would cope. I'm an aesthetics man as much as the next so tend to prefer the look of a factory build but could be convinced to go hand built.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    DarrenGTi wrote:
    Fair point. I know I've put out over 1,000kw on the turbo.

    1000kw - your power/weight ratio must be awesome?
  • DarrenGTi
    DarrenGTi Posts: 68
    Imposter wrote:
    DarrenGTi wrote:
    Fair point. I know I've put out over 1,000kw on the turbo.

    1000kw - your power/weight ratio must be awesome?

    Yep, I occasionally see if I can out do my washing machine on a spin cycle. Awesome typo!
  • mechanism
    mechanism Posts: 891
    My vacuum cleaner does 1700 watts - I reckon it could get a pro contract.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Mechanism wrote:
    My vacuum cleaner does 1700 watts - I reckon it could get a pro contract.

    That's the amount it uses... as it heats up, the actual power output is a lot less I suspect... maybe a domestique in a continental team? :lol:
    left the forum March 2023
  • EpicTri
    EpicTri Posts: 7
    I have an old pair of Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL wheels and a few other random sets somewhere in the garage. Having ridden 10s of 1000's of kms over the years I can honestly say that no matter what wheelset I'm riding, whether in the mountains or the local pancake-flat bypass, they all feel and ride the same to me. Sometimes when I'm feeling good I can put in a good time using the Mavics and later I can ride a near identical time using an archaic pair of Xero wheels. It's not about the equipment but if it looks nice and you feel good about it then it's a good purchase so enjoy it.
  • dwanes
    dwanes Posts: 954
    EpicTri wrote:
    I have an old pair of Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL wheels and a few other random sets somewhere in the garage. Having ridden 10s of 1000's of kms over the years I can honestly say that no matter what wheelset I'm riding, whether in the mountains or the local pancake-flat bypass, they all feel and ride the same to me. Sometimes when I'm feeling good I can put in a good time using the Mavics and later I can ride a near identical time using an archaic pair of Xero wheels. It's not about the equipment but if it looks nice and you feel good about it then it's a good purchase so enjoy it.

    My wife can't tell the difference between Standard Def TV and HD TV, but I can.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    maddog 2 wrote:
    handbuilts are good for all the reasons given above and a great for general wheels but the factory wheels outperform them in absolute terms, in my experience.

    That's probably because builders don't have the budget to buy lots of advertising space and offset the numerous reports of failures that brands experience... in other words, they can play to the limit, while we need to be a bit more conservative, hence hand built are typically a little heavier and have more spokes, being less aerodynamic as well. That said, I have built wheels of 1 Kg for the set and lighter than anything available in the Campagnolo range, after long discussions to make sure they knew what they were getting... while Mavic doesn't seem to put a great deal of effort in discouraging potential customers from buying the SLR... :wink:
    It's unfortunate that the people who would benefit most from handbuilt wheels usually don't consider them or aren't aware of them as an option. The higher-end factory wheels "play to the limit" in the sense that they are light and stiff, which I guess needs more technical manufacturing and quality control, but the lower-end ones that are fitted as standard on the majority of road bikes sold for under £4000 are heavy and poor quality. Most people buying an entry-level to mid-range road bike would really benefit by budgeting to immediately replace the crap low-end factory wheels with some basic value handbuilt ones, which would massively improve the ride from the outset.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Any wheel upgrade (handbuilt or not) is a benefit for most bikes.

    All are built to a price and most don't take any notice of what wheels their new bike is, wheres they will notice what groupset it is. So wheels are ripe for cost cutting.

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