Desalination of sea water in places like Greece

heavymental

Talking to my mate today about fresh water in Greece; much of it is shipped in apparently. Seems to me that given the hours and intensity of sunshine, the proximity of (salty) water and the demand, that it can't be too much of a stretch for engineering minds to create a low/zero energy solution to solve a problem.

Anyone got a proposal?

pinno

In India, in dry areas, they have built water retention tanks (20m in diameter) as it rains quite a lot during the rainy season. When one fills it overspills into the next one etc etc in a cascade as the tanks are in sequence.The tanks are fed by small reservoirs which capture the water and then feed the (enclosed) tanks. It has changed huge areas agriculturally.
Greece has hills and plenty of rainfall during winter and should be no excuse for not retaining any water that falls. Maybe thats whats wrong with Greece - it needs huge inward and structural investment. Anyone who earnt above a certain amount would pay very little tax as there was so many loopholes in the system.
Therefore in answer to the OP - maybe the culture of sucking money out of the system has to change.

heavymental

Interesting. It was also noted that there were lots of wind turbines being erected even though Greece isn't particularly windy whereas there were no solar panels. In Nepal there are panels for hot water all over the place and that is one of the poorest countries on Earth. Wind turbines are almost a symbol of financial/funding mismanagement/skullduggery aren't they?

GiantMike

Heavymental wrote:

Interesting. It was also noted that there were lots of wind turbines being erected even though Greece isn't particularly windy whereas there were no solar panels.

There are probably EU grants for wind turbines and not for solar.

rolf_f

Heavymental wrote:

Talking to my mate today about fresh water in Greece; much of it is shipped in apparently. Seems to me that given the hours and intensity of sunshine, the proximity of (salty) water and the demand, that it can't be too much of a stretch for engineering minds to create a low/zero energy solution to solve a problem.

Anyone got a proposal?

Similarly, it can't be too much of a stretch for engineering minds to create a low/zero energy use car or a perpetual motion machine. Desalination isn't a very energy efficient process but I'm sure Greece shouldn't need to import water. Even Mallorca manages most years to not import water despite over use of the groundwater in the plains having resulted in contamination by saline water. In the short term it probably doesn't cost Greece any more to import than it would to desalinate and Greece is hardly a country to think in the long term. Ultimately, the optimum solution is almost always to reduce demand - simply use less water. Given how much we waste, that isn't actually very difficult.

SpainSte

In Gibraltar we/they use a desalination plant for the sea water. Makes nice quality drinking water, nicer than the stuff that comes out of the taps in Spain (which I would never drink it looks horrible).

I should imagine, as is the case with most government business in Greece that there are significant vested interests and unions that would prevent changes to the status quo, a small number of people probably get very very rich out of it.

tiredofwhiners

If the Greeks really are shipping it in, its because someone is falsifying the bills and invoices and making money on the side, even if uneconomic, and/or the necessary bribes and corrupt payments weren't made to allow desalination plants to be built.

bernithebiker

I used to trade oil, and often sent cargoes of jet fuel from Algeria to North West Europe (UK, Rotterdam, etc.)

As the tanker used to go back to the Med empty, you could get very cheap freight in that direction. I worked for some time on selling water back to the Algerians, but never actually managed to pull it off, simply for lack of infrastructure. But it's certainly feasible and in theory, quite economic.

pinno

Heavymental wrote:

Interesting. It was also noted that there were lots of wind turbines being erected even though Greece isn't particularly windy whereas there were no solar panels. In Nepal there are panels for hot water all over the place and that is one of the poorest countries on Earth. Wind turbines are almost a symbol of financial/funding mismanagement/skullduggery aren't they?

Yes, in the UK. If you ever go by road from Northern Germany to Denmark, you will see hundreds of wind turbines stretching for miles and out to sea. In the Scandinavian countries, a vast proportion (and I do not know the percentages) of wind turbines are community owned. As a result, their feelings towards wind energy is totally different to ours.
Wind farms in the UK are imposed on us and hence the animosity towards them.
However, we are a bunch of stick-in-the-muds. A retired businessman locally, who owns a local pub in a village of roughly 2000, set about applying for funding for a community owned wind farm. The Co-operative bank offered packages to help fund the project. It would mean that the electricity would be free in 7 years and after that period, they would get some money back. Each household would have to contribute approx. £100 and pay roughly the same cost for electricity for the 7 year period.
It never got off the ground, despite making perfect ecnomic sense.

MountainMonster

pinarello001 wrote:

Heavymental wrote:

Interesting. It was also noted that there were lots of wind turbines being erected even though Greece isn't particularly windy whereas there were no solar panels. In Nepal there are panels for hot water all over the place and that is one of the poorest countries on Earth. Wind turbines are almost a symbol of financial/funding mismanagement/skullduggery aren't they?

Yes, in the UK. If you ever go by road from Northern Germany to Denmark, you will see hundreds of wind turbines stretching for miles and out to sea. In the Scandinavian countries, a vast proportion (and I do not know the percentages) of wind turbines are community owned. As a result, their feelings towards wind energy is totally different to ours.
Wind farms in the UK are imposed on us and hence the animosity towards them.
However, we are a bunch of stick-in-the-muds. A retired businessman locally, who owns a local pub in a village of roughly 2000, set about applying for funding for a community owned wind farm. The Co-operative bank offered packages to help fund the project. It would mean that the electricity would be free in 7 years and after that period, they would get some money back. Each household would have to contribute approx. £100 and pay roughly the same cost for electricity for the 7 year period.
It never got off the ground, despite making perfect ecnomic sense.

Coming from a sustainability background means this is very detrimental to energy supplies in the UK. So many people complain they are an eye sore, but people need to remember the UK could be self-sufficient in their energy supply through more wind farms, and it would also allow capacity to be built up. People here worry too much about changing their countryside.

heavymental

It's also trying to convince people that there is an alternative to paying a power company to supply their energy. Most people are suspicious if it isn't run by a big company/household brand like British Gas. I can imagine the community meeting in the above example was very frustrating for those who'd done the work.

I was thinking about the bottle light guy http://aliteroflight.org/index.php#prettyPhoto when I thought of this initially. I'm sure given the amount of solar energy there must be some simple way to desalinate on a domestic level without needing too much technology.

the playing mantis

MountainMonster wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

Heavymental wrote:

Interesting. It was also noted that there were lots of wind turbines being erected even though Greece isn't particularly windy whereas there were no solar panels. In Nepal there are panels for hot water all over the place and that is one of the poorest countries on Earth. Wind turbines are almost a symbol of financial/funding mismanagement/skullduggery aren't they?

Yes, in the UK. If you ever go by road from Northern Germany to Denmark, you will see hundreds of wind turbines stretching for miles and out to sea. In the Scandinavian countries, a vast proportion (and I do not know the percentages) of wind turbines are community owned. As a result, their feelings towards wind energy is totally different to ours.
Wind farms in the UK are imposed on us and hence the animosity towards them.
However, we are a bunch of stick-in-the-muds. A retired businessman locally, who owns a local pub in a village of roughly 2000, set about applying for funding for a community owned wind farm. The Co-operative bank offered packages to help fund the project. It would mean that the electricity would be free in 7 years and after that period, they would get some money back. Each household would have to contribute approx. £100 and pay roughly the same cost for electricity for the 7 year period.
It never got off the ground, despite making perfect ecnomic sense.

Coming from a sustainability background means this is very detrimental to energy supplies in the UK. So many people complain they are an eye sore, but people need to remember the UK could be self-sufficient in their energy supply through more wind farms, and it would also allow capacity to be built up. People here worry too much about changing their countryside.

also coming from such a background and being forced to read on this subject, you are incorrect, for starters we could be self sufficient at times (what happens when the wind doesnt blow, how is having back up generators making us self sufficient on wind) if pretty much every bit of countryside was covered in them.

wind is the biggest fallacy of renewable energy. even proper environmentalists themselves(not just those jumping on bandwagons, campaigning, pressure groups, with little actual knowledge of the scinece and practicalities who make a lot of noise in the media) , even the doyenne of environmentalism, James Lovelock, does not back wind. its vagaries, and costs are too high, un-economical and unsustainable given the lifespan of a turbine and the implementation and construction costs.

renewables wise, HEP is obviously king, solar is feasble, but not in the majority of the uk unfortuantely, due to lack of sunshine, but the ones that should and could make a big large scale difference are tidal, be it barrages, undersea spinners or whatever. thats predictable and regular. once the conservation/wildlife damage issues (even thoguh these dont get factored in for wind turbines...) are overcome that is the way forward. and of course using less...

Alain Quay

Getting back to Greece, they are ideally placed to develop renewables but generally
many renewables industries around the world are still struggling to get a toehold,
particularly during a global recession.

In Western Australia, the city of Perth is effectively mining its water and is having to invest in
desalination. But WA is resources wealthy and can afford the capital investment.

Greece reputedly has 20 billion Euros in Swiss bank accounts. I remember reading in a guide book
that they are big on the importance of family, but not so good on collective purpose, like
working together to improve their economy. Like many countries that have suffered
under military dictatorship, maybe the citizens learn not to respect the law.

the playing mantis

solar is the obvious route for greece to go.

long term when the gold fields in WA run out, will Perth exist??

Alain Quay

WA has other metals, iron ore, gas, oil etc. Around 1/2 of Oz's export revenue comes from under the soil in WA, which is why some there want to secede. There has been a lot of political backpatting about how the Aussies 'skillfully' managed to avoid recession. But yes, when it all runs out, Perth will be a town again.

Alain Quay

PS: In Australia, certain right wing journalists make it their duty to relentlessly ridicule renewables projects, particularly their lack of quick return on investment - while at the same time defending to the hilt the coal mining industry, which coincidentally is one the biggest sources of global warming.

pinno

Alain Quay wrote:

Getting back to Greece

Whaddya mean? Its very Cake Stop to wander off topic.

My mate bought a flat pack recession funeral kit. It included a tin of black paint, a brush, a flat pack coffin, roof rack and a shovel. All for £9.99. Pretty good value i'd say.

Alain Quay

I can see a wee problem with a DIY coffin...

MichaelW

Getting back to Greece:
I love baklava.

Alain Quay

I made baklava once, in Sydney one summer. It is an effective way to draw out every ant in your house and for miles around. They all get stuck in it and you can just bin it.

heavymental

Why did anyone give money to Greece in the first place? It's not like it's got anything to generate any kind of revenue beyond supporting itself. Same with Ireland. Some countries you just got to accept are best at growing olives and sitting in the sun or growing potatoes and sitting in the pub.

Alain Quay

Out of interest, as part of Greece's bailout, was there any EU insistence on tax reform, tightening the laws and increasing penalties for tax avoidance, etc.?

tiredofwhiners

Alain Quay wrote:

Out of interest, as part of Greece's bailout, was there any EU insistence on tax reform, tightening the laws and increasing penalties for tax avoidance, etc.?

Yes, inherent in the stage payments. The financial model which worked out how much money they would need to stay afloat at each point, had calculations of increased taxation income by different sources. The problem has always been that the income tax payments have been lessened because of the Greeks refusal to enact other conditions which would have increased the income tax take, or have reduced the cost of the public sector.

Two good examples spring to mind - the closed shop nature of pharmacies who are the only source of medicines in the country. One cannot even buy an aspirin in a supermarket, and on Sundays when the pharmacies are closed you are out of luck. One cannot even open a pharmacy if you are in the area of one which already exists. So their medicine bills are astronomical as the pharmacies generally don't supply generic drugs and as they have a lock on the market they can charge what they want ( a lot).

The second ones are for example that Doctors don't pay income tax, and dangerous professions like being a barber allows you to retire on a full pension at 50. Oh, and if you are a public sector worker you can never be sacked or made redundant - ever, for any reason whatsoever.

If the above anomalies had bee sorted out on day 1, then the tax take would have been well up, the costs well down and the borrowing reduced. But being serial tax avoiders, the Greeks chose to load even more burden on the private sector rather than sort out the public sector.

As to tax avoidance, its quite hard to prove when he biggest avoiders are the public sector workers who are supposed to be policing the whole system.

bernithebiker

Bad governance seems to be quite trendy in Europe at the moment;

F. Hollande has promised that unemployment will be lower by Xmas.

This is and always has been utter dreamlike nonsense.

So, to keep his promise, he has come up with a GENIUS plan. He's going to create however many (50, 000?) public sector jobs it takes to get the population off the dole, and thereby deliver on his promise.

Holy sh^t! Why didn't I think of that?!!

Alitogata

Heavymental wrote:

Talking to my mate today about fresh water in Greece; much of it is shipped in apparently. Seems to me that given the hours and intensity of sunshine, the proximity of (salty) water and the demand, that it can't be too much of a stretch for engineering minds to create a low/zero energy solution to solve a problem.

Anyone got a proposal?

Your mate is misinformed. It is the first time that I'm hearing that we shipping in water. There's no such thing as far as I know and all areas in Greece, even the most remote islands don't ship in water.
Go on with your discussion but have in mind that is based on a totally wrong example based on misinformation.

P.S. It would be good not to judge people and places unless you have lived in these places. There's lot of negative plain propaganda nowadays you see.

the playing mantis

yeah but u do put shi tty tissues in the bin still....!

Alitogata

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Two good examples spring to mind - the closed shop nature of pharmacies who are the only source of medicines in the country. One cannot even buy an aspirin in a supermarket, and on Sundays when the pharmacies are closed you are out of luck. One cannot even open a pharmacy if you are in the area of one which already exists. So their medicine bills are astronomical as the pharmacies generally don't supply generic drugs and as they have a lock on the market they can charge what they want ( a lot).

The second ones are for example that Doctors don't pay income tax, and dangerous professions like being a barber allows you to retire on a full pension at 50. Oh, and if you are a public sector worker you can never be sacked or made redundant - ever, for any reason whatsoever.

[..]

As to tax avoidance, its quite hard to prove when he biggest avoiders are the public sector workers who are supposed to be policing the whole system.

Who says these things?

Pharmacies indeed don't open on weekends but there are always two or three in every area which are open all day long during the weekend in order to cover emergency cases. Pharmacies sell medicines according the prices that medicine companies give for their products for. All medicines have printed price on them. Pharmacies can't charge whatever they want. Pharmacies do supply generic drugs, and any other drug as well. However public health system don't pay for all kind of drugs and there are lists of those who their cost is covered or not from public health system.

One can open a pharmacy store in any area wants but it has to be at least 150 meters away from another pharmacy. My neighborhood in Ilioupolis Athens has three in two blocks distance.

Doctors do have to pay income tax about the 40% of their income. If some of them avoid to pay it, doesn't mean that they all avoid to do so, or that is not required to do so.

No barbers are retired at 50 and being a barber is not included in dangerous professions. ( ha ha ha .. who says these rubbish!! For gods shake). The policemen though can retire earlier from street patrols and work, when in older age, in the police departments in office jobs.

Public sector workers pay as anybody else. It is well know though, that those who don't pay are the high ranked public sector workers who got their jobs from their political connections, many of the politicians who are in their majority totally corrupted, and lot of high income businessman who have political connections as well. Ordinary, everyday people, pays much more than its income can support, and this is the reason why people suffers now in this recession.

And now I read all these lies, who blame people and not bankers, profiteers and corrupted politicians, who are currently gain huge financial profits from this situation and from the agreements who have done with other corrupted politicians, in Germany and Brussels.

As I wrote above, don't trust what you read from people who don't live in Greece.. Lot of propaganda...

Alitogata

the playing mantis wrote:

yeah but u do put shi tty tissues in the bin still....!

Excuse me.... ??? Is this some kind of humor??? Because if you said that as a joke I would like to inform you that your joke is distasteful ( don't use another more famous Greek expression). :twisted:

capt_slog

A couple of points to throw into the mix.

PV solar panels, the ones that make electricity not heat your water, don't work so well when they get hot. The efficiency goes down as the temperature goes up, perhaps their longevity too. I've wondered often why I don't see more PV panels in greece, and I think this is probably the reason.

A few of the grrek islands have good supplies of water which come form artesian wells. However, the water has a very high mineral content, calcium/magnesium hardness I think, which makes it undrinkable for 'us'. I'm guessing that if you're brought up there and have always drunk it, then you have some immunity, but holiday makers are warned not to as it can cause upset stomachs. I used it for tea when I was there, it scales a kettle in under a week, and this of course removes the calcium and makes it more freindly to British tums.


I was in Skiathos. The resident population is usually 6000 and this swells to 70,000 over the holiday season. If there is a problem with importing water, then perhaps I was part of the cause along with the other 63999.

the playing mantis

Alitogata wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

yeah but u do put shi tty tissues in the bin still....!

Excuse me.... ??? Is this some kind of humor??? Because if you said that as a joke I would like to inform you that your joke is distasteful ( don't use another more famous Greek expression). :twisted:

how is it distasteful, its true.

Alitogata

Capt Slog wrote:

I was in Skiathos. The resident population is usually 6000 and this swells to 70,000 over the holiday season. If there is a problem with importing water, then perhaps I was part of the cause along with the other 63999.

Nobody is importing water during the summer season in Skiathos or any other island. On the other hand all tourists all over the world are advised to avoid tab water, 1/ because in some cases the tab water is indeed too hard for their stomachs, 2/ in some places is indeed not that clear 3/ how would bottled water companies be able to sale their products? :P

Anyway.. my point is that there is too much misinformation about what happens here generally, not only about the supposed imported water, and my point is that that I'm sick and tired to see how many lies are spread generally about Greece..

:roll: