Borris & bbc go Dutch....sort of.

rick_chasey
rick_chasey Posts: 74,430
edited August 2013 in Commuting chat
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23611650

Looks like I agree with Borris.
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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 74,430
    If the video is tl; dr the summary is: Dutch way is better - Borris wants similar culture. Bbc do a bit of history on how Dutch culture for bikes came into being ( hint: unpopular cycling deaths forced councils to invest heavily into pro bike infrastructure at expense of cars. Only then did it surface). Few 'only works in Netherlands' arguments debunkdd (sort of) Bbc journo does a bit of cycling round my neck of Holland before doing some riding in London.
  • kayodot
    kayodot Posts: 143
    are you Dutch by any chance?
  • rubertoe
    rubertoe Posts: 3,994
    He is yes,

    We all know that we would like the dutch model in the UK. But its never going to happen, they give all the speil but when push comes to shove, they dont have the balls to do anything about it.
    "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

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  • We always have all sorts of arguments of why the Dutch model can't work in the UK.

    Then you watch, we'll get Dutch style infrastructure in London; then the argument will be, well London is a special case, it won't work anywhere else, and on and on with the endless excuses.
  • edhornby
    edhornby Posts: 1,780
    If the video is tl; dr the summary is: Dutch way is better - Borris wants similar culture. Bbc do a bit of history on how Dutch culture for bikes came into being ( hint: unpopular cycling deaths forced councils to invest heavily into pro bike infrastructure at expense of cars. Only then did it surface). Few 'only works in Netherlands' arguments debunkdd (sort of) Bbc journo does a bit of cycling round my neck of Holland before doing some riding in London.

    Chasey's spot on - and the bit in bold is why it fails every time in the UK, we try and create stuff for the cyclist with an (understandably IMO) limited budget but we keep on letting the cars lorries taxis carry on as they always have
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  • edhornby wrote:
    Chasey's spot on - and the bit in bold is why it fails every time in the UK, we try and create stuff for the cyclist with an (understandably IMO) limited budget but we keep on letting the cars lorries taxis carry on as they always have

    The budget is limited, however it's still a fraction of what is put in for general road (read car) use.
    The only realistic way to put in cycling infrastructure is to take space from cars, it doesn't have to mean taking an entire lane, the likes of Mallorca manages to have cycle lanes down the verges by having a narrower central carriageway than would be the case in the UK.
  • keyser__soze
    keyser__soze Posts: 2,067
    edited August 2013
    One more cyclist on the road in London is one fewer car, or one more free space for someone else on a bus or train or tube. No-one's really pushing the advantages for everyone else both in terms of space or reduced expenditure on roads or public transport, instead we hear of all these billions of pounds that are going to be spent on 'cycling provision' which gets the backs up of certain non-cyclists as they think that's money that should've been spent on roads/trains/tubes/buses etc.
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  • it doesn't have to mean taking an entire lane, the likes of Mallorca manages to have cycle lanes down the verges by having a narrower central carriageway than would be the case in the UK.

    Yeah, and in town many arterial roads have a central reservation that's dead space for the most part, aside from the occasional traffic island for peds. Get rid of them, properly segregated lanes at the side, and hope like buggery the improved infrastucture really does make a drastic difference to number of people cycling versus driving!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 28,435
    There are already a lot of cyclists. At peak times, there are often more bikes than other vehicles waiting at junctions. Any new infrastructure is going to need some significant spare capacity to avoid becoming overcrowded within weeks. Use of CS8 would suggest that the main radial cycle routes need at least a whole traffic lane in each direction - fine on the Embankment, but on some of the other routes, this is going to be a squeeze.
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Does anyone know how cities like Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Berlin deal with trade and goods vehicles? Whenever I see a comparison between these cities and London the main thing thats missing from the former is lorries and vans. The biggest problem in London isn't private cars to be honest, its large vehicles.
  • Sadly car culture is too ingrained and the car lobby to strong. I am amazed no one in power really gets it but at the moment it will take years to change (that said if you went to Eton, would cycling as a form of transport really hit you as practical?). That said, our numbers are growing pretty rapidly and cycling issues are far more prominent now, in ten years time we may have 3 times more cyclists, certainly in London which will produce parralysis for the roads and government. I believe at this point they won't be able to go backwards on cycling, so finally road space will be taken back off the little metal boxes.

    And here's an idea... if reading this, why not get busy for 5 mins googling the local council, finding a person/councillor to write to and dropping them note explaining a specific road hazard/infrastructure improvement which needs adressing. Else, they'll happily believe everything is ok as no one has been making any issue about it (appart from retired Daily Mail readers who write to them whining that cyclists are riding 2 abreast and running amock on the roads they pay for).
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  • notsoblue wrote:
    Does anyone know how cities like Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Berlin deal with trade and goods vehicles? Whenever I see a comparison between these cities and London the main thing thats missing from the former is lorries and vans. The biggest problem in London isn't private cars to be honest, its large vehicles.

    Segregation for the most part. Motor traffic and bicycle traffic is kept apart unless the roads are residential or rural.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Also worth contacting your MP. There's a debate in parliament on 2 September - contact your MP and tell them you want them to attend and support the findings of the Get Britain Cycling report.
    MPs will return from their summer holidays to debate measures designed to revolutionise Britain’s streets for cycling, prompted by nearly 70,000 supporters who signed The Times cycle petition.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cy ... 814659.ece

    I've written to my MP, and had a reply saying he's broadly supportive of cycling issues etc. I think spoke to someone in his London Office who confirmed the debate was in his diary and he planned to attend as long as nothing else clashed, which I guess is as much as I could hope for.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Graham, is that Geoffery Robinson? I emailed him (twice now) and have had no response.
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  • Lefthook
    Lefthook Posts: 124
    Be interesting to compare the average speed of traffic in London and Amsterdam. Do the cars actually get quicker journey times in Amsterdam because of the cycling infrastructure.

    And of more relevance would be any examples of large cities who have managed to create a leap in cycling numbers in recent years, say the last 5-10 years and how this affected overall speed of traffic. Wether the increase in cycling numbers actually had a measurable benefit to the motor traffic speed. I assume not, since we dont see these number touted about.

    Has anyone managed to 'Go Dutch' since the Dutch?
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Nope - Bob Ainsworth for me. Every single time I've emailed him (always about cycling related issues) I've had a typed reply on House of Commons headed paper. I have various issues with him as a politician, but he seems to take his obligations to his constituents very seriously.

    The reply to this didn't specifically say whether he would attend, so I rang his office and spoke to someone there who confirmed he would try to attend.

    If Robinson won't reply to your emails, I'd give his office a ring instead.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Yeah, I've gone direct to his email, and to the local Labour office email a couple of weeks later, with no response. Might have to give them a call.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    My previous MP was Jim Cunningham, so Robinson is the only Coventry MP whose constituency I've never lived in!
  • Lefthook wrote:
    Be interesting to compare the average speed of traffic in London and Amsterdam. Do the cars actually get quicker journey times in Amsterdam because of the cycling infrastructure.

    And of more relevance would be any examples of large cities who have managed to create a leap in cycling numbers in recent years, say the last 5-10 years and how this affected overall speed of traffic. Wether the increase in cycling numbers actually had a measurable benefit to the motor traffic speed. I assume not, since we dont see these number touted about.

    Has anyone managed to 'Go Dutch' since the Dutch?

    It's not Amsterdam, but the second video in this blog post shows measures that are being trialled in the Dutch city of Assen to make journeys by car more efficient. It's a question of good overall planning, I don't think taking space away from motorised traffic has to necessarily mean either longer or shorter journeys.

    As I say, I think if you create a lot of segregated cycling infrastructure you have to hope it is widely used for the whole system to work (slightly obvious/redundant point, perhaps)

    Edit: sorry I can't post the youtube link directly but it is blocked at my work.
  • Agent57
    Agent57 Posts: 2,300
    Lefthook wrote:
    Has anyone managed to 'Go Dutch' since the Dutch?

    Portland, Oregon, are perhaps getting there.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in ... Statistics

    Quite a nice TEDx video about it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ZhTaxL6T8
    MTB commuter / 531c commuter / CR1 Team 2009 / RockHopper Pro Disc / 10 mile PB: 25:52 (Jun 2014)
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    OT? Maybe...

    N6JycSt.jpg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Amsterdam is tiny compared to London: that tends to make things easier. I'm looking forward to living there - then cycling in the Highlands at weekends
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  • http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23611650

    Looks like I agree with Borris.

    He's still talking about a lack of space in central London - so yeah, not fully Dutch then.

    For some reason I wasn't getting captions telling me who she was interviewing. Who was the bell-end in the middle who reckoned cyclists were an 'aggressive minority' and cycling is one of the most dangerous things you can do? :lol:
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916

    Has this been posted - covers much of what this discussion is about?
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • asprilla
    asprilla Posts: 8,440
    Who was the fat bloke with the weird eyebrows in the video claiming that people who only drive cars have better personalities than people who drive cars and ride bikes?
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  • Agent57
    Agent57 Posts: 2,300
    Asprilla wrote:
    Who was the fat bloke with the weird eyebrows in the video claiming that people who only drive cars have better personalities than people who drive cars and ride bikes?

    A motorist. They're all like that, you know.
    MTB commuter / 531c commuter / CR1 Team 2009 / RockHopper Pro Disc / 10 mile PB: 25:52 (Jun 2014)
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 74,430
    Jeez. You lot only talk about London.

    Do it in the rest of the country if London can't.
  • Amsterdam is tiny compared to London: that tends to make things easier. I'm looking forward to living there - then cycling in the Highlands at weekends

    It goes both ways. The fact that London is big can help because it's so big and there's so many people there it's difficult to get in and out by car, therefore cycling has an obvious benefit.
  • vermin
    vermin Posts: 1,739
    Jeez. You lot only talk about London.

    Do it in the rest of the country if London can't.

    Um, have you actually seen the rest of the country? It's big and scary, with the most pathetic public transport system. Unlike those in London, people in the rest of the country actually need to use their cars to get on with normal life. I'm seen as properly weird/mad for cycling 16 miles each way to work, largely because I have no choice but to mix it with HGVs travelling at the national speed limit on major trunk roads. Bikes just don't cut it at all for the vast majority of people out here. From my limited experience, London is the one place in the UK that actually does work for cycling.