Oh god, not another "what wheels" thread *facepalm*

drlodge

Hopefully a little different, I'm just toying with ideas at the moment. Not interested in Factory wheels

Current wheels are (handbuilt of course)
Record 32H hubs
Sapim laser/race spokes
Excellight rims
Conti Supersonic tubes and GP4000S tyres

The wheels are great, nothing wrong with them at all, do exactly what I wanted them to do. But I wonder if there is is set of wheels that would make my cycling more enjoyable and faster during the summer months including the odd 10 mile time trial. I had thought about something along the following lines:
Novatec hubs (or Wheelsmith "own brand" type quality)
CX Ray spokes
Gigantex 50mm tubular rims 20/24
Some nice light tubs (no idea on specifics)

Reckon these wheels would be around the £600 mark (tubs extra), its what Harry Rowland showed me when I was at his place last year while having the above wheels made up.

But I wonder if these is some half way house? I'm not into carbon clinchers, but looking for ideas for a really "nice" set of hoops, they don't have to last forever but would be more aero than my current ones. Living in Surrey, they also need to be decent climbers. A spoke count lower than 32 is a given I think.

Are there other clincher rims I should consider that are deeper than the Excellights, better (racing) clincher tyres? What would be a really nice set of summer wheels for certainly less than £1000?

Oh, must be Campag compatible, and its going on the Rourke of course (see sig). I weigh 75kg.

ricwilliams

want to sell me your current ones?

drlodge

ricwilliams wrote:

want to sell me your current ones?

Certainly not! :P

napoleond

I have gigantex 50mm tubs, 20/24 cx ray with PMP hubs. They are great! Fast, smooth and stiff. Prefer them to the Zipps I had (pre firecrest 404 from 808 rear) and on a par with the Campag Bora Ultra 2.

drlodge

Thanks NapD, so one vote there for the Gigantex option. What tubs are you using/would you recommend?

smidsy

How about something like these (scroll down to see proper picture). Built by a very good builder.

viewtopic.php?f=40091&t=12932093

drlodge

smidsy wrote:

How about something like these (scroll down to see proper picture). Built by a very good builder.

viewtopic.php?f=40091&t=12932093

Not bad as an alternative, more aero, lower spoke count. Needs a Campag freehub body but not tempted enough to make an offer right now...and as for the builder, what can I say :shock:

napoleond

drlodge wrote:

Thanks NapD, so one vote there for the Gigantex option. What tubs are you using/would you recommend?

I'm currently on Conti Sprinters, they are pretty good, much better than the hosepipe GP4000s I had, but prefer Vittoria Corsa. I'm loving the veloflex clinchers so may well give them a go next.

Grill

Talk to Steven at Colbert Cycles. He has a few sets of 50mm already built that he sells quite cheap.

bianchiboy

I'd go for some of these : http://www.lead-out.co.uk/stilletto

Got a pair myself. Brilliant weight/price at 1270g(measured on my scales) and £580 with ceramic bearings!
Also really lovely quality and come with some gorgeous skewers. Pretty stealthy and exclusive IMO

napoleond

bianchiboy wrote:

I'd go for some of these : http://www.lead-out.co.uk/stilletto

Got a pair myself. Brilliant weight/price at 1270g(measured on my scales) and £580 with ceramic bearings!
Also really lovely quality and come with some gorgeous skewers. Pretty stealthy and exclusive IMO

If they're any good, they look great! Doubt they'd be stiff enough for me.

cycleclinic

I built a set for a customer this week, novatec hubs, cx-ray spokes, gigantex tub rims, they are very nice and I wanted to keep them but since is had paid me I had to hand them over this morning. This pair weighed 1383g. The rear rim is warrantied for radial lacing on the NDS rear so it should be done that way which mean nipple freeze or self locking nipples need to be used to avoid true issues.

This spec is perfect for that summer race bike or for those who want light deep carbon.

ugo.santalucia

If you have to spend that money and end up with low end taiwanese hubs, you might as well keep your money. Both Novatec 291/482 and the rebadged Bitex that some builders use are short living, mediocre hubs, which are adequate for a 2-300 pounds build, but not if you plan to spend double that. I have had a number of problems with this Novatec model, from bearing failures within 500 miles, to freehub failure... and the Bitex are not better.
Royce on alloy rims will be in the same price tag as Novatec on carbon rims and of course a better wheel set.
You can have something like KInlin XR 300 (or Interloc Cadence Aero if you like stickers, the rim is the same) built with radial CX ray spokes at the front and standard DB spokes at the rear... 24/24 is my favourite combination and would work well for a light set at your weight. I would assume you are looking at 1500 grams or maybe even a tad under... but rotating weight will be equivalent to something like 1350-1400 grams built on Novatec light or Bitex
A more long term plan would be to get 28/28, so the hubs can be re-used for a different type of build in the years to come... Royce tend to stick around for a long time and 28 holes rims are more mainstream than 24. The difference in mass can be as low as 50-60 grams

Have not done the Maths, but depending on the floating price of Royce hubs, you are probably looking at 600-650 in total.
For the record, I have built myself a set of wheels with CX ray spokes and I am no faster than I was with DB ones, so indeed they are a waste of money as I always thought, but they look nice, if you like these sort of things...

Here http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... dated-view

If you are set on carbon, Planet X sell some 50 mm Gigantex tubular rims at 99 pounds each, which is roughly half the price you would pay for them anywhere else. They are drilled for internal nipples, but that is not a massive problem. 24/24 make a nice build and even if they are offset drilled, the offset is so small that it is not noticeable at the front... I have built a set a few months back, feedback is very positive

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/326

bianchiboy

bianchiboy wrote:
I'd go for some of these : http://www.lead-out.co.uk/stilletto

Got a pair myself. Brilliant weight/price at 1270g(measured on my scales) and £580 with ceramic bearings!
Also really lovely quality and come with some gorgeous skewers. Pretty stealthy and exclusive IMO


If they're any good, they look great! Doubt they'd be stiff enough for me.

I thought that they might be a bit flimsy but they are actually very stiff. I struggle to feel any flex at all, and I have lent them to a 85kg friend who says the same. Certainly stiffer than my Fulcrum Racing 1s

cycleclinic

Well ugo I know you don't like the novatec hubs but they are not that bad.Yes bearing failure can happy quickly like riding in wet days on salted roads for example or in very wet weather. If riden on dry roads then they last. Most wheels carbon wheels are riden on dry roads so their is little problem. My own set I have riden through the winter on dry days and through the spring and summer and they are still running very smooth. I have done alot more than 500 miles. Also I have used them alot and have not had the feedback you have. bad experiences can colour your impressions of something. My experience has been very positive. For a cheap lightweight hubset there is little to compete with them and not everyone can afford to add £200 or more to the build to get "better" hubs.

Yes other hubs will provide better bearings but they tend to cost alot more or be heavier (and cheaper) like the Miche Primato's. Also all the bearing in these Novatec hubs can be chaged easily (with the right tools which any good bike shop should have) including the freehub body bearings and replaced with the best INA or SKF for longer life.

£99 for 50mm tubulars that is very cheap indeed but I don't think they are gigantex as the 20mm wide 50mm deep gigantex rims (real 430g and gigantex's claimed weight 445g) are heavier than Planet X claim (400g) also the ERd is different I think. And the Planet X R50 rim is lot lighter (claimed 379g) than the gigantex rim also the ERD (539mm R50 vs gigantex 548mm) is different which gives it away. These are not Gigantex 50mm tubular rims at least not the ones I have built with.

CX-rays are only useful for really competitive racers for a very slight advantage in a long fast race but some like the look of them and want them even if when they are told it will make little/no difference and that surely is O.K isn't it. CX-rays will not improve your peak speeds but all this has been said before. Hell I will build a set of these 50mm deep tubulars for my Sannio and I will have them because they look good not because they will make me faster because they won't by anything I can measure. It will also be my race bike for actual racing only.

That tubular wheelset I built was for a competitive racer any way so he wanted all the advantage he could get (real or mental). A wind tunnel tests of wheels build with CX-rays and round spokes does show a small difference in drag if your speed is high enough. For me personally I am only now starting to be able to sustain the speed where aero wheels would be useful and make a small difference but not enough to justify them on these grounds alone.

One chap recently (he phoned up wanting spokes) insited recently on buying CX-rays when I suggested for his needs that Lasers would do the job he came up with alot of excuse like his wheelbuilder says that CX-ray are stiffer, twist less e.t.c I tried informing him this is all rubbish and convinced him to spend less and buy the Laser spokes. I posted them of and a few days later he returned them for a refund. Sometimes it does not pay to give people what they do not want even though what they want is pointlessly expensive.

proper Aero wheels will make a 20W difference at around 30 mph compared to a 32 spoke shallow rimed wheelset. not much but for some that is enough. This has been said before I do not want anything I have wrriten to get peoples backs up.

drlodge

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll split my thoughts down into the 4 areas: rims, hubs, holes, spokes

Rims - definately going towards deeper section carbon tubular rims as I already have fairly light weight aluminium clincher rims (I don't want another set that are much the same). The Gigantex 50mm or similar seem about right, and they're practically the same weight as my Excellights. This should make for a stiffer wheel and be capable of having fewer spokes for that TT/fast road option. I would probably let my wheel builder of choice source the rims even if that means paying a little more. I don't mind sourcing hubs, but would rather have the comfort of knowing that if anything went wrong with the rim, I can go back to the builder and have him put things right. So that's probably Gigantex 50mm tubulars (there are "normal" and "light weight" options though?)

The KInlin XR 300 or similar would be a good alternative to my Excellights once they wear out (how long do rims normally last? They've done 2,000 miles and look almost like new still!).

Hubs - nice bit of advice by Ugo suggesting 28/28 with good quality hubs for the long term, hadn't thought of that. I would tend towards quality hubs anyway, whether its worth going 28/28 I don't know as these hubs are always going to have deep section rims, the Record hubs are 32H for more "every day" rims. I almost went for Royce hubs on my current wheels so may splash out. Frankly I doubt if I will wear the rims out that quickly but I do like having quality anyway. The Rourke is a classy bike so Royce seems a more fitting product.

Holes - ties in with hubs and spokes debate. For such a deep, stiff rim I would rather go for as fewer spokes as makes sense, I think that means 20/24 or 24/24 in whch case I would probably go for CX-ray for no good reason, other than for the sake of £100 extra I get some extra bling. If there is an advantage, I think the CX-rays have a smaller x-sectional area than say Sapim race, so should give a tighter tension and slightly more supple ride? Would you put lasers on these wheels on say a 24/24? I know Harry will use Race front and back if building 28/28.

If going 28/28 I would definately go standard spokes.

I'm not going to be placing an order just yet, I'm not actually decided 100% on the wheels I want and early next year might be a better time. Thanks for your thoughts!

napoleond

20/24 gigantex with cx rays and Royce. Sounds good! I have 20h front gigantex with pmps and they are splendidly stiff.

drlodge

NapoleonD wrote:

20/24 gigantex with cx rays and Royce. Sounds good!

This is indeed what my thinking is

ugo.santalucia

My recent views on CX ray spokes

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... dated-view

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My recent views on CX ray spokes

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... dated-view

Thanks Ugo, I had read it previously and as mentioned above I concur there is probably sod all advantage to CX-rays over standard db spokes. Choice will ultimately come down to what my wheel builder recommends, if I chose you then no doubt I would be persuaded to use standard db spokes

If building 20/24 or 24/24 would you use standard (ala race) or light (ala lasers) on these wheels?

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My recent views on CX ray spokes

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... dated-view

Thanks Ugo, I had read it previously and as mentioned above I concur there is probably sod all advantage to CX-rays over standard db spokes. Choice will ultimately come down to what my wheel builder recommends, if I chose you then no doubt I would be persuaded to use standard db spokes

If building 20/24 or 24/24 would you use standard (ala race) or light (ala lasers) on these wheels?

Laser front/race rear... I normally use DT spokes, but same concept: Revolution front/Competition rear

As previously, if you invest in Royce hubs, best to get 24/24 than 20/24... when it comes to to re-rim, you might find the rim of choice only as 24 and maybe not available as 20... it can be annoying and you will narrow your options for no reason

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Laser front/race rear... I normally use DT spokes, but same concept: Revolution front/Competition rear

Cool 8)

ugo.santalucia wrote:

As previously, if you invest in Royce hubs, best to get 24/24 than 20/24... when it comes to to re-rim, you might find the rim of choice only as 24 and maybe not available as 20... it can be annoying and you will narrow your options for no reason

Again, good advice, thanks. I have no issue going for 24/24.

cycleclinic

I am glad you are someone who listens to reason all too often I get people who want Cx-rays for reasons that are not real and refuse to listen to [my] reason which is there right after all.

drlodge

thecycleclinic wrote:

I am glad you are someone who listens to reason all too often I get people who want Cx-rays for reasons that are not real and refuse to listen to [my] reason which is there right after all.

Put it this way...mony saved on using normal db spokes, is money that can be used to by better/nicer hubs. CX-rays and Novatec hubs (not saying their crap btw), or normal spokes and Royce hubs. Not sure the equation is balanced but hopefully you get my drift.

cycleclinic

The balance depends on what you want out of your wheels. Everyones idea of what the best balance is is different and there is rarely a best answer that suits everyone just options with there own advantages and disadvantages. Up to the buyer to decide which balance of advantages and disadvantages suits them best. You have made your choice and it sounds like a good one.

For some it is not a good one as they want light weight everything but cannot afford Tune hub or DT Swiss 240's or CK R45's for those people your choice is not a good one as does not suit there, dare I say it, vanity.

I am sure you will be happy with your build.

drlodge

Just another thought, more like how to do carbon tubulars on the cheap. What about using the Planet-X rims (£99) with the Novatec 171/272 hubs (which Ugo says are a "different breed" than the 291/482 hubs)? Just I can't see them on the web except Parker International, and then only 32H/36H.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Just another thought, more like how to do carbon tubulars on the cheap. What about using the Planet-X rims (£99) with the Novatec 171/272 hubs (which Ugo says are a "different breed" than the 291/482 hubs)? Just I can't see them on the web except Parker International, and then only 32H/36H.

You can get 171/172 as 24 holes (sdeals.com has them and if not in stock just ask them to supply them) and when paired to the PX rims you mention, you are looking at a very reasonably priced build. Those rims are drilled for internal nipples, but that's not a major issue. I have built a few... here is a specimen

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/326

And another (rear only)

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/406

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Just another thought, more like how to do carbon tubulars on the cheap. What about using the Planet-X rims (£99) with the Novatec 171/272 hubs (which Ugo says are a "different breed" than the 291/482 hubs)? Just I can't see them on the web except Parker International, and then only 32H/36H.

You can get 171/172 as 24 holes (sdeals.com has them and if not in stock just ask them to supply them) and when paired to the PX rims you mention, you are looking at a very reasonably priced build. Those rims are drilled for internal nipples, but that's not a major issue. I have built a few... here is a specimen

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/326

And another (rear only)

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/406

Great, Thanks Ugo. So I can see the following:

NovaTec F171SB Front Hub, black 24H @£17.50 http://www.sdeals.com/oscommerce/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/46/products_id/344

NovaTec F272SB ED Rear Hub, black 24H (I need Campag - is this the right one?) @£37.50 http://www.sdeals.com/oscommerce/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/46/products_id/345

Two of these rims: Planet X 50mm Carbon Rim Useage : Rear (24H) @ £99 each http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/RIPX50C/planet_x_50mm_carbon_rim

Then I would need spokes (Revolution front/Competition rear) and building, total build cost would be around £350??? You may be getting a DM from me shortly :shock:

drlodge

So its job done then...have ordered:

1 x NovaTec F272SB ED Rear Hub, black - Number of spokes: 24 £37.50

1 x NovaTec F171SB Front Hub, black - Number of spokes: 24 £17.50

2 x Planet X 50mm Carbon Rim / Rear / 24H / Carbon with Matt Lacquer £99.99 each

3 x Vittoria Corsa EVO CX II Tubular / Team Prototype / Black / 23mm £38.99 each
(plus 2 little tubes of glue)

So £333 for wheels including tubs, just add on Paolo's building and spoke costs. That's under £350 for a pair of carbon tubulars (excluding tubs).

Who says hand built wheels are expensive? I'd say that's a bl**dy bargain!!!

TheSmithers

Nice spec mate and about time too!

I'm absolutely loving mine. Been on a couple of 30 mile rides with them and they have all departments completely nailed; climbing, acceleration, flats, descents. My bike looks and feels like a much more expensive bike now.

Post up some pics when you can, and a report on how they ride. You'll love them I'm sure.

drlodge

Its all arrived, I also need brake blocks (Swisstop yellow- got) and valve extenders (ordered).

The rims look nice, well finished for the price. Won't get them to Paolo until w/c 5th August at the earliest due to holidays but looking forward to riding them. Will post some build pictures and ride report in a separate thread.