What speed should I expect over 10 mile TT?

s2ook
s2ook Posts: 14
edited June 2013 in Road general
We recently purchased a Wattbike at work which i've been using for testing and poor weather training. I've started to get serious about cycling this year and have just built a TT bike based on a Planet X Stealth Carbon frame.

Previously my PB on a road bike with clip ons was 26:37 over the 10 mile club course in skinsuit and (old) aero helmet. I'm 34 and weigh ~203lbs. I used to do a lot of reistance training so whilst i'm heavy, i'm reasonably low bodyfat.

On a road bike on hoods i'm able to sustain 20mph over reasonable distances 25-40 miles on relatively flat ground in zones 3 to 4 (mainly).

I've been doing some fairly decent mileage (200+ weekly) with a mix of base endurance and threshold intervals.

I've done some testing on the Wattbike over the past month with the following results:

Peak power: 1714w (fatigued after interval training)
3 minute test: 405w

Today I performed two 11 minute intervals at 300w average and 308w average with a further 10 minute interval at 283w.

I've not done any FTP testing through bloods but according to the Wattbike site this should be somewhere between 284w and 304w which feels about right given the intervals I was doing today.

Given that I should be able to sustain a power output of >300w for 10 miles what sort of time should I expect to post? According to the bike power calculator this should equate to ~27mph, however, I don't seem to be able to get anywhere near that.

I realise that there are many variables, but looking at my previous PB, I think I should be a fair bit faster given my power output. If this is the case then I need to eiher ensure that i'm being consistent in power output through a power meter or fine tuning aerodynamics. I'm hoping the TT bike should facilitate the latter. I don't yet have a disc and i'm running 50mm tubulars so I could potentially ft an aerojacket. I don't have aero shoe covers either although my impression is that these don't improve the aerodynamic profile much. I have a Lazer chrono 3 helmet which could be replaced.

How can I improve my TT times?
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Comments

  • markos1963
    markos1963 Posts: 3,724
    What you haven't put is whether you did the testing on your TT rig. If not then that might be why you didn't hit the speed you expected. If you are not used/trained to riding in the TT position then you will produce less power.
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    Good point.

    The Wattbike, however, despite the price is rather cumbersome and does not allow the adjustment necessary to replicate my riding position on a road bike. I haven't yet done a TT on the Stealth Pro Carbon and will need some time to adapt to this. I have a tacx fortius which I can hook the TT bike to and although it's not as accurate as the Wattbike it might be useful doing some repeated tests to see what the performance decrement is going from a road position to TT.
  • supermurph09
    supermurph09 Posts: 2,471
    How many TT's have you done to achieve that time and how flat was the course?
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    I've done three TT's so far although the last one was a write off due to the road being resurfaced with chipseal. The course is relatively flat although there is 180 degree turn at the midpoint in the road (no roundabout) which slows it a bit. The quickest time this year is sub 24 and I'm led to believe it' one of the slower courses in the area.
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Why not do a ~25min interval on the Wattbike? You'll likely put out fewer Watts on your TT bike, but it'll be a more meaningful number than your max power, 3min power or even 10min power.
    More problems but still living....
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I rarely look at my wattage for a 10 as it's all about burying yourself. Despite this my last 4 10s have all been within a few watts (avg of 263w). Even with steady wattage there have been differences of minutes in terms of times as course and weather play a huge part, and don't discount your current mental state. Did you measure your FTP on a 20 minute test.

    You're peak is huge as I can barely hit an 800w.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    I haven't done a 20 minute test on the wattbike yet but there was plenty left on the intervals hence the higher wattage on the second interval. My heart rate at the end of the first interval was 159 and the second 162. I have a Tacx fortius at home which seems reasonably reliable but I doubt the power output is valid. I can hit 300w for 2x20 minute intervals without hitting a heart rate over 162.

    When I was training for power I did a Wingate test at university and spike a peak at around 1900w but I was much stronger back in thise days. I was a reasonable sprinter at school and a very poor endurance athlete so I focused on the power sports. A few injuries later brought me into cycling and now i'm realising what hard work it is trying to increase performance. I realise i'm not particularly talented and at 34, i'm over the hill, but I would like to do a 25mph 10 mile TT before hanging up my cleats. Maybe that's an unrealistic target for me in view of my weight and poor genetics for aerobic capacity.

    If the weather's poor this week i'll do a 20 minute test on the wattbike and report back.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Most of the best TTers are older than you. You'll hit a 24, you just need the right course, conditions, and perhaps a bit of motivation in 'breaking through' (I used to have the same problem with low HR until I realized I could bury myself much deeper than I'd ever thought possible).
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    edited June 2013
    20 minute test results at 6.30am and on an empty stomach:

    average wattage = 311.75

    The last minute I was still feeling strong so I pushed it and averaged 351 watts so my feeling is this still may be slightly below what I can actually do.

    Quite pleased nonetheless as I have progressed by circa 60watts over what I was able to achieve on the Tacx fortius.

    Did a 6 second peak power test after as well and hit 1827watts with an average of 1567watts.
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    edited June 2013
    Would a power meter be a good investment?
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    'bout tree fiddy
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    Bustacapp wrote:
    'bout tree fiddy

    ???
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Bustacapp wrote:
    'bout tree fiddy

    GODDAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER!
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    s2ook wrote:
    20 minute test results at 6.30am and on an empty stomach:

    average wattage = 311.75

    The last minute I was still feeling strong so I pushed it and averaged 351 watts so my feeling is this still may be slightly below what I can actually do.

    Quite pleased nonetheless as I have progressed by circa 60watts over what I was able to achieve on the Tacx fortius.

    Did a 6 second peak power test after as well and hit 1827watts with an average of 1567watts.

    I can do a 21:44 with an average of about where you are at 90kg...............
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    Give or take a kilo i'm in the same ballpark as you so a sub 24 this season should be realistic depending on course.

    I'm doing a TT on Thursday and sub 23 would be the course record for the local club, however, there is a 180 degree turn in the road rather than a roundabout. In good weather, some fine tuning of aero and assuming the Wattbike is correct (given the indicated power/cadence tables on the site given altitude I have no reason to doubt the validity of it), i'd hope to challenge for the record.

    Thanks for your input so far.
  • markos1963
    markos1963 Posts: 3,724
    I can do a sub 24 on about 290w and I'm nearly 50 and weigh 80kg so I would guess you should at some point crack that time.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    markos1963 wrote:
    I can do a sub 24 on about 290w and I'm nearly 50 and weigh 80kg so I would guess you should at some point crack that time.

    About the only advantage of living in Norfolk :lol:
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • markos1963
    markos1963 Posts: 3,724
    smidsy wrote:
    markos1963 wrote:
    I can do a sub 24 on about 290w and I'm nearly 50 and weigh 80kg so I would guess you should at some point crack that time.

    About the only advantage of living in Norfolk :lol:

    :mrgreen:

    Funny enough I'm only 17s down on my local Spoco than the A11?!
  • LegendLust
    LegendLust Posts: 1,022
    s2ook wrote:
    We recently purchased a Wattbike at work which i've been using for testing and poor weather training. I've started to get serious about cycling this year and have just built a TT bike based on a Planet X Stealth Carbon frame.

    Previously my PB on a road bike with clip ons was 26:37 over the 10 mile club course in skinsuit and (old) aero helmet. I'm 34 and weigh ~203lbs. I used to do a lot of reistance training so whilst i'm heavy, i'm reasonably low bodyfat.

    On a road bike on hoods i'm able to sustain 20mph over reasonable distances 25-40 miles on relatively flat ground in zones 3 to 4 (mainly).

    I've been doing some fairly decent mileage (200+ weekly) with a mix of base endurance and threshold intervals.

    I've done some testing on the Wattbike over the past month with the following results:

    Peak power: 1714w (fatigued after interval training)
    3 minute test: 405w

    Today I performed two 11 minute intervals at 300w average and 308w average with a further 10 minute interval at 283w.

    I've not done any FTP testing through bloods but according to the Wattbike site this should be somewhere between 284w and 304w which feels about right given the intervals I was doing today.

    Given that I should be able to sustain a power output of >300w for 10 miles what sort of time should I expect to post? According to the bike power calculator this should equate to ~27mph, however, I don't seem to be able to get anywhere near that.

    I realise that there are many variables, but looking at my previous PB, I think I should be a fair bit faster given my power output. If this is the case then I need to eiher ensure that i'm being consistent in power output through a power meter or fine tuning aerodynamics. I'm hoping the TT bike should facilitate the latter. I don't yet have a disc and i'm running 50mm tubulars so I could potentially ft an aerojacket. I don't have aero shoe covers either although my impression is that these don't improve the aerodynamic profile much. I have a Lazer chrono 3 helmet which could be replaced.

    How can I improve my TT times?

    Train smarter.
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    LegendLust wrote:
    s2ook wrote:
    We recently purchased a Wattbike at work which i've been using for testing and poor weather training. I've started to get serious about cycling this year and have just built a TT bike based on a Planet X Stealth Carbon frame.

    Previously my PB on a road bike with clip ons was 26:37 over the 10 mile club course in skinsuit and (old) aero helmet. I'm 34 and weigh ~203lbs. I used to do a lot of reistance training so whilst i'm heavy, i'm reasonably low bodyfat.

    On a road bike on hoods i'm able to sustain 20mph over reasonable distances 25-40 miles on relatively flat ground in zones 3 to 4 (mainly).

    I've been doing some fairly decent mileage (200+ weekly) with a mix of base endurance and threshold intervals.

    I've done some testing on the Wattbike over the past month with the following results:

    Peak power: 1714w (fatigued after interval training)
    3 minute test: 405w

    Today I performed two 11 minute intervals at 300w average and 308w average with a further 10 minute interval at 283w.

    I've not done any FTP testing through bloods but according to the Wattbike site this should be somewhere between 284w and 304w which feels about right given the intervals I was doing today.

    Given that I should be able to sustain a power output of >300w for 10 miles what sort of time should I expect to post? According to the bike power calculator this should equate to ~27mph, however, I don't seem to be able to get anywhere near that.

    I realise that there are many variables, but looking at my previous PB, I think I should be a fair bit faster given my power output. If this is the case then I need to eiher ensure that i'm being consistent in power output through a power meter or fine tuning aerodynamics. I'm hoping the TT bike should facilitate the latter. I don't yet have a disc and i'm running 50mm tubulars so I could potentially ft an aerojacket. I don't have aero shoe covers either although my impression is that these don't improve the aerodynamic profile much. I have a Lazer chrono 3 helmet which could be replaced.

    How can I improve my TT times?

    Train smarter.
    I haven't really commented on my training so how do you suggest I train smarter?

    Suffice to say my training is well researched and based on current evidence based principles.
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Does your training programme involve developing your 1-6sec power? If not then why are you testing it and willy waving about it on here?
    More problems but still living....
  • themekon
    themekon Posts: 197
    Such complicated systems seem to be being used now. More knowledge and technology on and off the bike just to beat 24 minutes for ten miles.
    Get out on the bike, ride club tens two or even three times a week. The improvements will come thick and fast.
  • amaferanga wrote:
    Does your training programme involve developing your 1-6sec power? If not then why are you testing it and willy waving about it on here?

    He's running 50mm tubulars and can sustain 20mph over 40 miles.
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    amaferanga wrote:
    Does your training programme involve developing your 1-6sec power? If not then why are you testing it and willy waving about it on here?

    1-6sec power is pretty useless for TTs. The OP should concentrate on 2x20 and pyramid intervals for better 10 mile times.

    Or he can do what me and many others do, which is to just go out and ride the bike a whole lot. :P
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • pkripper
    pkripper Posts: 652
    realistically, your 1-6 second power isn't relevant for anything other than getting off the start - mines about 1400W, but wouldn't use it in a TT as it 'burns a match' so to speak. I also have an 1hr FTP of about 245W, and based on current road bike performance (I've not used the TT bike in anger yet this year), I would expect to do a 10mile TT in around 26mins, without aero kit.

    BUT, power is only one dynamic - probably a more important one is aerodynamics. Is your position poo? You can be pumping out a ton of power, but if you're riding like a breeze block into the wind then a lot of it is wasted regardless of how much aero kit you put on. Maybe try and learn to 'turtlehead'? Is your pedalling smooth and consistent?
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    5 second power on wattbike, 990 W, 20 minute interval 298 Watts on wattbike, best 10 time 20:59.

    i think there is some variance between wattbikes, mine have been done of that of my coach, and have improved. Hopefully getting a Quark in next few weeks to see what it's like for real.
  • TheSmithers
    TheSmithers Posts: 291
    Wow! Some very impressive 10 mile times in this thread. Kudos! :D

    I'm looking to get into TTs. The closest I've got to a 10 mile TT is a route I do on the way home from work occasionally. It's 10 miles precisely, give or take 0.1 of a mile. My best so far is 29:49 with a traffic light and roundabout stop. That's on a standard road bike whilst wearing a ruck sack, so not the most aerodynamic combination, and I'm a little over 70kg and built more for endurance rather than power, but I gave it everything I had! I've got a long way to go to get anywhere near those sorts of times! :shock:

    My training isn't very scientific or TT orientated and just consists of riding my bike over a variety of distances. Perhaps I should focus my training more, but we'll see how my first real TT goes. I may hate them!
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    edited June 2013
    amaferanga wrote:
    Does your training programme involve developing your 1-6sec power? If not then why are you testing it and willy waving about it on here?

    Peak power is a useful predictor of TT performance. There are several studies showing correlation between Peak power and wingate testing in relation to time trialling. There is evidence showing similar efficacy for 30 second interval training compared to 4 minute intervals on FTP/TT performance.

    There is no willy waving intended, i'm merely provided evidence to gain feedback in objectifying my performance (or lack thereof). I also use Strava to this end.
    He's running over 40 miles at 20mph .

    That would be good. I can cut and paste as well. :wink:

    I use tubs for TT'ing as intimated in the context of my post. Using average speed as an indicator of progress can be a useful trend in determining progress throughout the course of a season particularly if similar routes are used. Again, I was merely adding a performance indicator which is relevant to my training for comparison. I commute at least three times weekly so this is useful to me. Speed, heart rate and PRE to determine progress in the absence of a power meter are useful parameters of performance.

    I have a training programme which addresses all aspects of performance which are relevant to me. If I can sustain 300+ watts over a 10 mile TT then from the responses I should be quicker. My question was related to this discrepancy not my training.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    If my peak is in the 750w range how is it I'm so much faster over a 10? ;)
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • s2ook
    s2ook Posts: 14
    Grill wrote:
    If my peak is in the 750w range how is it I'm so much faster over a 10? ;)
    Touche

    I hate it when people don't conform to statistical models. There's always the odd one that falls 2 standard deviations from the mean so to speak. I would hazard a guess and say that Hutchinson and Wiggo fall under that umbrella too. Still any correlative data will be wrong if the sample size is too small/not representative.

    Just imagine what you could achieve with a peak power output of say 2000watt+ :wink: