H+Son Archetype or Stans Alpha 400

leejdavies

Building up some new everyday wheels.

Does anyone here have any experiences with either of these rims that they'd wish to share?

Stans look great on paper but the previous 340 version received a fair bit of stick although no actual accounts just hearsay in most cases, but looking at the profiles the braking surface seems thin. Wondering if anyone has had long periods of use on them?

ugo.santalucia

I have built around 30-40 sets of Archetype... I am not aware of anyone who isn't happy about them... it is a damn good rim and it has now been on the UK market long enough that if there was any problem with it, it would be obvious... it is very difficult for me to justify building anything other than Archetype for sportive/fast riding.

The only limitation of a 23 mm rim is that if you use 23 mm tyres you are more likely to damage a rim on a pothole, with makes it a commuter un-friendly rim

cycleclinic

These are two very different rims. The Archetype is a heavyish rims that builds into an excellent wheel. In fact it is one of the best rims I have ever used. The other (stans) is a weight weenie rim. The new version does not crack like the old one but the brake track is thin so sing these with soft pads only and avoid riding in wet weather. This is a rim for light weight climbing wheels. It is not commtor friendly. The stan's rim is best used with a hub that give good bracing angles (not all do) and 28 or 32 spokes out back. Riders over 80kg should think about another rim.

So it all depends on the riding you do and what your priorities are.

Of coure with the 23mm eide rim yo could run 28mm tyres and avoid problems.

h1bda00

In January of this year, I had a set of wheels built with the black anodised Archetypes, black CK R45 hubs, black Sapim CX-Rays (20/24), black nipples. The wheelset weighed in a few grammes under 1500g on my scales (with rim tape, w/o skewers).

In my opinion, the look is fantastic. The finish on the Archetype (at least the all black version I have ) is superb.

How do they ride? Ride quality is excellent. Of course, a wheel is also the sum of the parts, and the hubs and spokes are relatively high end, so I assume the nice ride also has something to do with those bits. According to the wheelbuilder, the rims can take very high tensions, and indeed, the wheels felt quite stiff, yet the ride remained very comfortable. I have read elsewhere that because the Archtype rims are wide, lower tyre pressures can be used. So with these wheels, I tried lower pressure (90-100psi vs 120psi) than I normally do with road wheels, and indeed there was no noticeable increase in rolling resistance (there may have been, but I could not feel it). Using the same bike (a Focus Izalco), the ride with these wheels became much more comfortable than with the carbon clinchers (Reynolds 32s) I had on it, with no noticeable difference in performance.

What are the negatives? For me only two, neither of which has anything to do with the performance or ride quality, but should be taken into account before deciding.
The first is purely cosmetic. As you use the wheels, rim brakes will wear down the anodised finish around the brake track, which detracts from the overall appearance in my opinion.
The second has to do with tyre fitting. For me, fitting tyres onto these rims is more difficult than any (no exaggeration) other clincher I've tried. This includes Racing Zero, Racing 3, Racing 7, Ksyrium Elites, Reynolds 32s, and various Shimano rims, and tyres including GP4000s, Vittoria Diamante Pros, Open Corsa CXs. Finally had to put on some old, but relatively unused CST Express tyres I had lying around. I don't look forward to the first flat while out on the road.

Caveat - although receiving the wheels in January, I've only done a few hundred kilometres on them, as the weather here was so bad until recently. However, I don't expect my very positive opinion of the quality to change.

By the way - the wheelbuilder was DCR wheels, and I can recommend in terms of quality of the build. The wheels arrived perfectly true (or as close as humanly possible) and have remained that way. Had another wheel built by him with a Power Tap hub, and the quality was similarly very good.

ugo.santalucia

It is not true... fitting a tyre on an Archetype rim is very easy... I suggest the previous poster tries the same tyre on another rim... he will find out it is the tyre and not the rim.

As for how the H plus Son wears... mystery finally solved, there you go...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/361

asprilla

Got to say that i find it easier fitting Schwalbe Duranos, Vittoria Open Corsas, Veloflex Open Corsas, Vittoia Open Paves (all 25 or 24mm) to my Archetypes than I do to my Open Pros or my Kinlin ADHCs.

staffo

fitting tyres onto these rims is more difficult than any (no exaggeration) other clincher I've tried

I have to say I found the complete opposite with my Archetypes. My Vittoria Open Paves slipped on very easily whereas the same tyres on my DT Swiss r1.1 rims were an absolute nightmare.

leejdavies

thecycleclinic wrote:

These are two very different rims. The Archetype is a heavyish rims that builds into an excellent wheel. In fact it is one of the best rims I have ever used. The other (stans) is a weight weenie rim.

I don't think you read the title. Alpha 400 are ~425g according to the manufacturer and Archetypes are ~470g. Not really quibbling over the 100g but the quality of the rim. Hardly a weight weenie rim at over 400g either. But thanks for the info about the rims.

I currently ride 25mm GP4000s, a recent switch which has been brilliant. And I'd recommend to anyone. latex tubes 10psi less (about 85 front / 90 rear) and surrey's sh*t roads become almost smooth. FWIW I sit around 78-80kgs so no featherweight hence why I'm contemplating the alpha 400 not the 340.

The problem I have with the archtypes is the pointed profile and the un-machined brake surface. Seems like an odd choice for a road rim. Maybe they're aimed at those without gears. Think I might pop to Brick Lane Bikes :roll: to see them in real life. But in reality they're wider and cheaper. I can almost get 2 for 1 compared with the alpha.

Also, should point out that by everyday I don't actually mean everyday. Oops. I have a commuter bike so these will be for training, racing, sportives, etc. on my other bike.

Think i'm going to go for archetypes on my wife's bike. See how the look and ride. If I like them I might just swap out the free hub and steal her wheels! :twisted: and leave her with the Alpha's.

Cheers guys.

ugo.santalucia

leejdavies wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

These are two very different rims. The Archetype is a heavyish rims that builds into an excellent wheel. In fact it is one of the best rims I have ever used. The other (stans) is a weight weenie rim.

I don't think you read the title. Alpha 400 are ~425g according to the manufacturer and Archetypes are ~470g. Not really quibbling over the 100g but the quality of the rim. Hardly a weight weenie rim at over 400g either. But thanks for the info about the rims.

I currently ride 25mm GP4000s, a recent switch which has been brilliant. And I'd recommend to anyone. latex tubes 10psi less (about 85 front / 90 rear) and surrey's sh*t roads become almost smooth. FWIW I sit around 78-80kgs so no featherweight hence why I'm contemplating the alpha 400 not the 340.

The problem I have with the archtypes is the pointed profile and the un-machined brake surface. Seems like an odd choice for a road rim. Maybe they're aimed at those without gears. Think I might pop to Brick Lane Bikes :roll: to see them in real life. But in reality they're wider and cheaper. I can almost get 2 for 1 compared with the alpha.

Also, should point out that by everyday I don't actually mean everyday. Oops. I have a commuter bike so these will be for training, racing, sportives, etc. on my other bike.

Think i'm going to go for archetypes on my wife's bike. See how the look and ride. If I like them I might just swap out the free hub and steal her wheels! :twisted: and leave her with the Alpha's.

Cheers guys.

The Archetype are machined... the anodisation is done after the machining and not viceversa, that's all... same procedure applied by Mavic for the Open PRO CD, nothing unusual.
The pointed profile is a good thing for rims without double eyelets, it avoids them cracking... plus there is the usual aerodynamic bullxxit, if you are interested in those things

chrizi

right,Of coure with the 23mm eide rim yo could run 28mm tyres and avoid problems. thanks

leejdavies

The Archetype are machined... the anodisation is done after the machining and not viceversa, that's all... same procedure applied by Mavic for the Open PRO CD, nothing unusual.
The pointed profile is a good thing for rims without double eyelets, it avoids them cracking... plus there is the usual aerodynamic bullxxit, if you are interested in those things

The more I procrastinate the more I'm tempted by the Archetypes. Thanks Ugo. And they're cheaper so it'll save me a bundle. I assume all but the silver finishes succumb to the the usual brake pad rub shown in the link you added earlier?

Also, as you seem the wheelbuilding aficionado I was planning on cx-rays? Good? Bad? Any better spoke choices around?

ugo.santalucia

leejdavies wrote:

The Archetype are machined... the anodisation is done after the machining and not viceversa, that's all... same procedure applied by Mavic for the Open PRO CD, nothing unusual.
The pointed profile is a good thing for rims without double eyelets, it avoids them cracking... plus there is the usual aerodynamic bullxxit, if you are interested in those things

The more I procrastinate the more I'm tempted by the Archetypes. Thanks Ugo. And they're cheaper so it'll save me a bundle. I assume all but the silver finishes succumb to the the usual brake pad rub shown in the link you added earlier?

Also, as you seem the wheelbuilding aficionado I was planning on cx-rays? Good? Bad? Any better spoke choices around?

If you fancy spending 120-150 pounds in spokes, go ahead... I would only use them in a 20/24 race oriented build

on-yer-bike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It is not true... fitting a tyre on an Archetype rim is very easy... I suggest the previous poster tries the same tyre on another rim... he will find out it is the tyre and not the rim.

As for how the H plus Son wears... mystery finally solved, there you go...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/361

I think I recognize that wheel.

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It is not true... fitting a tyre on an Archetype rim is very easy... I suggest the previous poster tries the same tyre on another rim... he will find out it is the tyre and not the rim.

As for how the H plus Son wears... mystery finally solved, there you go...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/361

I think I recognize that wheel.

Look at the nipples angles... what a beauty...

h1bda00

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It is not true... fitting a tyre on an Archetype rim is very easy... I suggest the previous poster tries the same tyre on another rim... he will find out it is the tyre and not the rim.

As for how the H plus Son wears... mystery finally solved, there you go...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/361

Well, it is true for my experience with the rims. And of course I tried fitting exactly the same tyres (GP4000s and Diamante Pros to be precise) to the Archetypes and then to my Racing Zeros and Reynolds 32s. On both of the latter rims, both tyres mentioned went on and off with almost no effort, whereas on the Archetypes, it is a colossal struggle. Maybe the rims on my wheelset are just slightly larger ...

NWLondoner

thecycleclinic wrote:

Of coure with the 23mm eide rim yo could run 28mm tyres and avoid problems.

LOL

Try putting 28's on my bike. I'd not be going anywhere fast. Actually I would't be going anywhere!!

Tight frame clearance. 24mm is the widest I can use.