Wheels

yellowv2

Hi folks,
I'm new to the forum but I've been following the various threads on wheels with interest, as I'm after a new set myself.
I was thinking of Campagnolo Shamal/Mavic Kysrium SL's but decided I would be better off spending with some Handbuilt wheels. I was thinking of something along the lines of Archtype H Plus Son or Velocity A23's rims with CX Ray spokes on PMP hubs.
I spoke to a very well respected wheelbuilder today who said he wouldn't advise either rim as both were far too expensive and don't believe everything you read about CX Ray spokes as they too are too expensive and not all they are cracked up to be! He will only use them on race wheels and also says they are bad news in a crash!
He suggested an alternative but it has got me thinking. I would like a set for £450 - 700, for all round use. I am 70kg dripping wet!
Thoughts please.

duckson

What rim/spoke combo did he suggest?

cycleclinic

CX-ray spokes are expensive other wise they behave much like sapims Laser spokes in term of the the stiffness they impart to the wheel. Yes they are more aero but this is only really important for racers but the effect they have is small but real at higher speeds (25mph+ while pedalling on the flats). I do not use them often even though I have large stock and most of the time they get it for the look really, but if that is what the customer wants and so long it does not comprise the build then why not. Used properly CX-rays are a fine spoke just a pricey one.

PMP hubs are good apparantly but for less money and the same weight there is the excellent Miche hubs. They have proper preload adjustment, long bearing life and they come in 24-36H drillings. The front hub can be radially laced too. The 24H hubs are not imported by the U.K distributor but there are other legimate ways for shop to buy them. I do through the miche agent.

Most 70kg riders can easily use a 24F/28R wheelset with the archetype rims on Miche hubs with Sapim Laser spokes (same weight as the CX-rays and nder half the price). Alloy nipples could be used to save a bit of weight or add some coloured bling in place of the brass nipples that the Laser spokes come with. These wheels would cost alot less than your budget and potentially serve your needs well (although you have provided no detail as to what your needs are). Also why spend more than you need to? Spending more does not mean a wheel more suited to your needs, it can mean the exact opposite in fact. The black and the Hard ano grey rims are availble in 24H drilling but the H+ Son distribtor is not getting a 24H grey rims in with the next shipment so it black only for now. More spokes for your weight is generally unecessary.

If you are a shimano/sram user and you really want to spend your budegt then you could use Dura ace 9000 hub with the archetype rims. If yo are a campag user then the Miche hubs are the best option.

The velocity A23 in 24/28H drilling will also work for most 70kg riders (unless you a very powerful 70kg sprinter).

The archetype rim though is a much better rim. With even tesnion the radial trueness of a wheel with the archtype rim in lower than with the A23 rim. Do not take that the A23 is a bad rim, it isnot it just that the qality of the extrusion, finish, weld is just better on the Archetype rim. The rim is 30g heavier though but is stiff.

If you want low weight the velocity A23 wins. If low weight is not your only concern the use the archetype rim.

For hubs Miche and Dura Ace make durable hubs in 24H drilling. Also both these are 11 speed compatible so if you ever get shimano or SRAM 11 speed you can use it without changing wheels. Also the Miche hub can be has with a campag freehub for campagnolo 9/10/11 speed.

There are other rim options too. Toy are quite light so you have more options depending on the style of wheel you are after. The archetype build though is a very good option.

bobones

yellowv2 wrote:

I spoke to a very well respected wheelbuilder today who said he wouldn't advise either rim as both were far too expensive and don't believe everything you read about CX Ray spokes as they too are too expensive and not all they are cracked up to be! He will only use them on race wheels and also says they are bad news in a crash!

LOL, sounds like Big Al? Did he also advise against black spokes?

ugo.santalucia

yellowv2 wrote:

Hi folks,
I'm new to the forum but I've been following the various threads on wheels with interest, as I'm after a new set myself.
I was thinking of Campagnolo Shamal/Mavic Kysrium SL's but decided I would be better off spending with some Handbuilt wheels. I was thinking of something along the lines of Archtype H Plus Son or Velocity A23's rims with CX Ray spokes on PMP hubs.
I spoke to a very well respected wheelbuilder today who said he wouldn't advise either rim as both were far too expensive and don't believe everything you read about CX Ray spokes as they too are too expensive and not all they are cracked up to be! He will only use them on race wheels and also says they are bad news in a crash!
He suggested an alternative but it has got me thinking. I would like a set for £450 - 700, for all round use. I am 70kg dripping wet!
Thoughts please.

It all makes sense...
A 23 and Archetype are not uber-expensive... in fact they are the cheapest 23 mm rims you can buy and they are 10 pounds or so more than Open PRO. Of course you can buy rims for half the price.. you can always buy stuff for half the price, but is it what you want?
I totally agree about CX ray, I have the feeling those who spec them for every build, do so for the hefty profit margin they offer, I would only really use them for Time trialling deep section wheels, as everywhere else they are OTT.
If you can make 50 pounds profit out of every wheelset simply by offering a more expensive spoke, it is tempting, isn't it?

yellowv2

Ok guys,
Thanks for the replys, interesting stuff.
He suggested Mavic CXP33 rims on NovaTec SL hubs with Sapim Laser spokes 28hf/r.
I don't think he is an Al, in fact I believe he is one of THE most respected builders around in most peoples eyes. I think he may be a touch old fashioned but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Or put another way, doesn't follow trends and is only interested in providing customers with what they want on his terms. Therefore protecting his reputation by not building wheels he cannot be 100% happy with.
My needs are for pleasure riding and sportives and similar type rides, I think I would like the lightest wheel I can reasonably have but i am happy for guidance. I would like something that looks nice as well as works well and would probably go for the best hubs I could justify. I do not particularly want cx rays and would happily have Lasers. I would need Campagnolo compatible hubs and would welcome opinions especially on Miche.
As I said in my original post I was looking at PMP I also like Royce.

ugo.santalucia

yellowv2 wrote:

Ok guys,
Thanks for the replys, interesting stuff.
He suggested Mavic CXP33 rims on NovaTec SL hubs with Sapim Laser spokes 28hf/r.
I don't think he is an Al, in fact I believe he is one of THE most respected builders around in most peoples eyes. I think he may be a touch old fashioned but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Or put another way, doesn't follow trends and is only interested in providing customers with what they want on his terms. Therefore protecting his reputation by not building wheels he cannot be 100% happy with.
My needs are for pleasure riding and sportives and similar type rides, I think I would like the lightest wheel I can reasonably have but i am happy for guidance. I would like something that looks nice as well as works well and would probably go for the best hubs I could justify. I do not particularly want cx rays and would happily have Lasers. I would need Campagnolo compatible hubs and would welcome opinions especially on Miche.
As I said in my original post I was looking at PMP I also like Royce.

Pretty much all the Novatec 291/482 sets (also called SL) I built over the past 12 months have had the bearings replaced... between 1-3 K miles, which is a bit disappointing, in fairness. As a result I don't use them any longer. Just not suited to UK climate.
Laser at the rear... really? On a 28 holes construction it won't be the stiffest or most durable wheel.

yellowv2

Apologies, just re read email, he didn't actually specify Laser on the rear so probably not then. I haven't agreed anything specific but had asked his views on my original proposed build. So he has probably just given his view in general?

Cheshire Cat

Guess the builder...Paul Hewitt.

yellowv2

No it's not Paul Hewitt...... but of a similar ilk! In the South East.

forward_loop

Harry ?

PS - the novatec hubs - where these the same as on the planet x builds ?

yellowv2

Yes Harry

forward_loop

I dont have any dealings with him - but quite Iike what he suggested.

Monty Dog

I've got some Harry Rowland wheels - now on their third pair of rims and second set of hubs and working fine :-D

lawrences

Monty Dog wrote:

I've got some Harry Rowland wheels - now on their third pair of rims and second set of hubs and working fine :-D

So you've got some Harry rowland spokes?

ugo.santalucia

Very decent man and excellent builder, but the Novatec 291/482 have been a letdown for me... I have built a dozen sets and those who have used the wheels, instead of simply posting photos of them, have had the bearings replaced very early on. For some bearings we couldn't find SKF ones as replacement, so I suppose even the second set will not last very long.
Ask Harry his experience with this particular set, I would be surprised if he says they are very durable.
The other Novatec, 171/172 or Ambrosio are way more durable

yellowv2

I think I have decided to go with Archetype rims and PMP hubs. Would I be pushing it too much to go 20/24?
What would be the opinions on spokes, Lasers fr and rear?
Unfortunately I won't be able to get Harry to build them as he won't build Archetypes.
So recommendations for a good builder would be welcomed.

rowlers

yellowv2 wrote:

I think I have decided to go with Archetype rims and PMP hubs. Would I be pushing it too much to go 20/24?
What would be the opinions on spokes, Lasers fr and rear?
Unfortunately I won't be able to get Harry to build them as he won't build Archetypes.
So recommendations for a good builder would be welcomed.

^^^ by ll accounts

ugo.santalucia

yellowv2 wrote:

I think I have decided to go with Archetype rims and PMP hubs. Would I be pushing it too much to go 20/24?
What would be the opinions on spokes, Lasers fr and rear?
Unfortunately I won't be able to get Harry to build them as he won't build Archetypes.
So recommendations for a good builder would be welcomed.

It's probably time Harry Rowland gets a BLB Bigmama account... Velocity and H plus Son rims are now accepted to be as good as if not better than Mavic. I don't find anything remarkable about the CXP 33. Open PRO are very nice rims, but again there is nothing to make them stand out in a market crowded with 28-32 H eyeletted box type rims... I use those, the excellight, DT 465 indifferently, depending on what is cheaper or on offer. Even slightly heavier rims like Excellence, Evolution and Excursion offer exactly the same riding experience... a blindfold test wouldn't reveal any difference in road behaviour whatsoever. 23 mm rim might not be to everyone taste and I do acknowledge the risk of rim damage due to lesser tyre protection, but at least it is slightly different experience from an Open PRO.

yellowv2

Ah, I think he has some issue's with BLB they have had their differences shall we say! There in probably lies the reason.