Handbuilt/ factory wheels confusion

Mickyg88
Mickyg88 Posts: 289
edited March 2013 in Road buying advice
At long last I've decided to upgrade the bog standard wheels on my Scott CR1 comp, so where to start -- handbuilt or factory wheels. Searches on here are a bit confusing, less than a year ago one of the respected sages on here proclaimed kysirium elites at every opportunity, now hand built are his first choice, as is the case in most recommendations.
I don't doubt for one minute the expertise on here, but with either hand builds or factory builds there seems to be a pattern, certain brands/ builders seem to be in 'vogue' for a while.
Looking at factory wheels, Shimano RS80 and Prolite Braccianos were in favour 12 months ago, where are they now, prolite don't even have a distributor in the UK currently, is it that the factory built follow the magazine reviews, hence the Cero AR30 being out of stock after the great review in CW.
Onto the hand built, this again is really confusing, although obviously the best way to go according to the experts on here, who's views I totally respect. A google search brings up a number of well known names, and others who aren't mentioned on here, all proclaiming to be the 'best' in their field. But, once again some of the better known ones seem to have dropped out of favour, not seen a mention of Harry Rowland or Pete Mathews for a while, the current favourite seems to be Wheelsmith, which isn't a problem, except that they now have a waiting list, maybe due to recommendations on here.
Now I know a favourite on here is Ugo, who I'm sure can build what I want, but probably being a one man band ( no disrespect Ugo) can't accept other than cash payment, but the search brings up others such as DCR who again proclaim that they build the best, and incidentally come in at a good price. Again confusion reigns, each builder seems to recommend different rims/hubs/ spokes, and that theirs will be the best for the job.
So where to go from here, just looking for a set of wheels to suit a 75kg guy, who likes to go out alone for around 30 miles and would like a light set of wheels, 1600g max I think, oh and no more than £350, which is the best way to go?

Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Mickyg88 wrote:
    At long last I've decided to upgrade the bog standard wheels on my Scott CR1 comp, so where to start -- handbuilt or factory wheels. Searches on here are a bit confusing, less than a year ago one of the respected sages on here proclaimed kysirium elites at every opportunity, now hand built are his first choice, as is the case in most recommendations.
    I don't doubt for one minute the expertise on here, but with either hand builds or factory builds there seems to be a pattern, certain brands/ builders seem to be in 'vogue' for a while.
    Looking at factory wheels, Shimano RS80 and Prolite Braccianos were in favour 12 months ago, where are they now, prolite don't even have a distributor in the UK currently, is it that the factory built follow the magazine reviews, hence the Cero AR30 being out of stock after the great review in CW.
    Onto the hand built, this again is really confusing, although obviously the best way to go according to the experts on here, who's views I totally respect. A google search brings up a number of well known names, and others who aren't mentioned on here, all proclaiming to be the 'best' in their field. But, once again some of the better known ones seem to have dropped out of favour, not seen a mention of Harry Rowland or Pete Mathews for a while, the current favourite seems to be Wheelsmith, which isn't a problem, except that they now have a waiting list, maybe due to recommendations on here.
    Now I know a favourite on here is Ugo, who I'm sure can build what I want, but probably being a one man band ( no disrespect Ugo) can't accept other than cash payment, but the search brings up others such as DCR who again proclaim that they build the best, and incidentally come in at a good price. Again confusion reigns, each builder seems to recommend different rims/hubs/ spokes, and that theirs will be the best for the job.
    So where to go from here, just looking for a set of wheels to suit a 75kg guy, who likes to go out alone for around 30 miles and would like a light set of wheels, 1600g max I think, oh and no more than £350, which is the best way to go?

    I had to rebuild wheels build by DCR. I would look elsewhere. Wheels built by Harry Rowland and Pete Matthews are of a superior quality, for what I have seen
    left the forum March 2023
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    Mickyg88 wrote:
    At long last I've decided to upgrade the bog standard wheels on my Scott CR1 comp, so where to start -- handbuilt or factory wheels. Searches on here are a bit confusing, less than a year ago one of the respected sages on here proclaimed kysirium elites at every opportunity, now hand built are his first choice, as is the case in most recommendations.
    I don't doubt for one minute the expertise on here, but with either hand builds or factory builds there seems to be a pattern, certain brands/ builders seem to be in 'vogue' for a while.
    Looking at factory wheels, Shimano RS80 and Prolite Braccianos were in favour 12 months ago, where are they now, prolite don't even have a distributor in the UK currently, is it that the factory built follow the magazine reviews, hence the Cero AR30 being out of stock after the great review in CW.
    Onto the hand built, this again is really confusing, although obviously the best way to go according to the experts on here, who's views I totally respect. A google search brings up a number of well known names, and others who aren't mentioned on here, all proclaiming to be the 'best' in their field. But, once again some of the better known ones seem to have dropped out of favour, not seen a mention of Harry Rowland or Pete Mathews for a while, the current favourite seems to be Wheelsmith, which isn't a problem, except that they now have a waiting list, maybe due to recommendations on here.
    Now I know a favourite on here is Ugo, who I'm sure can build what I want, but probably being a one man band ( no disrespect Ugo) can't accept other than cash payment, but the search brings up others such as DCR who again proclaim that they build the best, and incidentally come in at a good price. Again confusion reigns, each builder seems to recommend different rims/hubs/ spokes, and that theirs will be the best for the job.
    So where to go from here, just looking for a set of wheels to suit a 75kg guy, who likes to go out alone for around 30 miles and would like a light set of wheels, 1600g max I think, oh and no more than £350, which is the best way to go?

    With handbuilt you can specify exactly what you want whereas factory built wheels are always a compromise, especially at the budget you have set yourself. For £350 you could get a light but strong build which you wont get with factory builds which at that price will compromise on weight, strength or both. Obviously depends on where you live as to where you get the wheels built. As I am in Cambridge I have good options nearby in Andy Kelly at Bicycle Ambulance or the Cycleclinic near to Haverhill. .

    I am the same weight as you but would not consider less than 32 spokes. Is weight really the overriding factor? A well built wheelset on a decent set of hubs will last years and can be re-built unlike a lot of the factory options with unobtainable parts. For my next build I will be going Archetype rims laced to 105 hubs, 32 spoke. Should be 1700g or so and come in around £270 from bycycle Ambulance. For your budget you could upgrade the hubs (DuraAce maybe) if you think it's worth it.

    Talk to a decent wheelbuilder and they will guide you in the right direction so you get a build suited to your needs and budget.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited March 2013
    I have built alot of 28F/28R or 24F/28R spoke wheelsets for rider's of the OP weight (including myself but I am 80kg) and no reliability issue are apparant even on shallow rims like the RR415 or velocity A23. This open's up more options. The question is them does the OP want peace of mind of more spokes at the expense of a bit of bit of extra weight (and it won't be enough to make any difference) or is the OP a bit of weight weenie.

    So the OP need to put priorites in order first. The intended use suggest weight is not the foremost concern so I would not try to save grams by using alloy nipples. Also if the OP want to ride in all weathers there is not better hub than Miche RG2 (silver) or Primato (black) for the price. Dura ace hubs are lighter and more expensive. If you are a campag user the DA hubs are useless.

    A wheelset with Velocity A23 rims 24H front and 28H off centre rear, Sapim Laser spokes and Miche hubs would meet the OPs needs and be around 1635g. Lighter could only be achieved by using alloy nipples and Novatec hubs and these are fine if you do not do too much wet weather riding.

    A 28F/32R wheelset using the same components as above (A23 rims, Miche hubs and Laser spokes) would only weight another 55g, not much really.

    A 28F/28R wheelset built using DT Swiss RR415 rims front and rear novatec hubs if you are a fairer weather rider (i.e you do not not ride in wet filthy conditions) with Sapim Laser spokes and brass nipples would weight 1480g. the 28F/32R version would weight just over 1500g.

    Thicker Sapim race spokes can be used as well and this creates more variations but at your weight unless you are riding on really bad roads these are not needed really but they are cheaper. There are so many hub options that the variation are almost endless so your priorities will determine the best one.

    So yes talk to a wheel builder if you want to go the handbuilt route.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • davem399
    davem399 Posts: 269
    I am fortunate enough to live close to Harry Rowland, which is handy to have a well respected wheel builder virtually on my doorstep. I have a pair of Harry's wheels, Ambrosio hubs and DRC rims which are about 13 years old and almost as good as new. Apart from a bearing which failed after a few weeks which Harry replaced FOC, they have been perfect. A quick glance at the bikes outside our local cafe stops will see plenty of Harry's wheels.
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    To the Cycleclinic.

    Good advice there for the OP. I am considering my options on a new build. Currently considering the build I mention above. I have looked at hub options and the Miche Primato and Shimano 105 fall into my budget. You mention Miche above. Which hub specifically? With 105 I am limited to 32h. I guess the Miche offers a 28h front option.

    Archetype vs A23 is there much difference in quality/weight between them?

    As with all things I want the best bang for my buck. Budget up to £300. Being local to me I was going to ride down and have a chat anyway as Bicycle Ambulance have not got back to me. I wanted to see the Archetype rims in grey before I commit.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The A23 rim averages at 450g per rim and the archetype 480g per rim.
    The Miche hubs I order from the Miche agent not through the U.K distributor so I order individual hubs from 24H to 36H drillings. I have quite a large stock as I use alot of these.

    The A23 rim is not as nicely finished as the Archetype. The Srchetype is pretty much in a class of it own when it comes to the quality of the finish. Dt swiss rims come a very close second. Also the Archetype and the various DT swiss rims I use (RR415, RR465 and RR585) build to far tighter roundness tolerances while keeping even tension than the A23 rim does. that is not to say the Velocity A23 builds a bad wheel, because it does not. In fact the difference in roundness is only noticeable in the the truing jig and even then it very small but the builder will notice these things, the rider never will.

    105 hubs are fine and give excellent tension balance. The Miche hubs look great, are lighter and are a doddle to maintain and of course require no servicing like cup and cone hubs do. Also they come in a variety of drillings. Given the tenison balance given by the rear Miche hub it is best coupled with a A23 off centre rim on the rear. The Archetype rim given off set in the drilling give a better tension balance so a off centre rim is not needed for 11 speed hubs like Miche. However I have built plenty of wheels with 11 speed hubs and centre drilled rim (no drilling offset) and had no issues so it not exactly necessary anyway.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • designman
    designman Posts: 405
    I'm thinking about Handbuilt wheels for this season, was looking at getting some DA 9000 hubs, what rims & spokes not sure about yet.
    My question would be, is it possible to build a pair of handbuilt clincher wheels lighter than the factory DA 9000 24CL wheels? and still be very strong, but using DA 9000 hubs.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    designman wrote:
    I'm thinking about Handbuilt wheels for this season, was looking at getting some DA 9000 hubs, what rims & spokes not sure about yet.
    My question would be, is it possible to build a pair of handbuilt clincher wheels lighter than the factory DA 9000 24CL wheels? and still be very strong, but using DA 9000 hubs.

    Possibly... But is it worth it?
    left the forum March 2023
  • Anyone recommend a good wheel builder in York/Leeds area? Was going to buy some RS80s but want to see what hand built will get me first.
    Cheers
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    The A23 rim averages at 450g per rim and the archetype 480g per rim.
    The Miche hubs I order from the Miche agent not through the U.K distributor so I order individual hubs from 24H to 36H drillings. I have quite a large stock as I use alot of these.

    The A23 rim is not as nicely finished as the Archetype. The Srchetype is pretty much in a class of it own when it comes to the quality of the finish. Dt swiss rims come a very close second. Also the Archetype and the various DT swiss rims I use (RR415, RR465 and RR585) build to far tighter roundness tolerances while keeping even tension than the A23 rim does. that is not to say the Velocity A23 builds a bad wheel, because it does not. In fact the difference in roundness is only noticeable in the the truing jig and even then it very small but the builder will notice these things, the rider never will.

    105 hubs are fine and give excellent tension balance. The Miche hubs look great, are lighter and are a doddle to maintain and of course require no servicing like cup and cone hubs do. Also they come in a variety of drillings. Given the tenison balance given by the rear Miche hub it is best coupled with a A23 off centre rim on the rear. The Archetype rim given off set in the drilling give a better tension balance so a off centre rim is not needed for 11 speed hubs like Miche. However I have built plenty of wheels with 11 speed hubs and centre drilled rim (no drilling offset) and had no issues so it not exactly necessary anyway.

    Thanks for the detailed response. As I like the look of the Archetypes it is probably not worth worrying about the 30g per rim difference, especially if the Miche hubs are lighter anyway. If using the Miche I might be tempted to go for 24/28 which is what my current wheels are. What hubs do you usually recommend building up the Archetypes on?
  • designman
    designman Posts: 405
    designman wrote:
    I'm thinking about Handbuilt wheels for this season, was looking at getting some DA 9000 hubs, what rims & spokes not sure about yet.
    My question would be, is it possible to build a pair of handbuilt clincher wheels lighter than the factory DA 9000 24CL wheels? and still be very strong, but using DA 9000 hubs.

    Possibly... But is it worth it?

    I would prefer handbuilt rather than factory wheels so if anything goes wrong with the wheels it's easy to replace.
    What would be the best rims & spokes for a pair of lightweight wheels? Open Pro / DT Swiss?
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Anyone recommend a good wheel builder in York/Leeds area? Was going to buy some RS80s but want to see what hand built will get me first.
    Cheers

    These guys http://www.justridingalong.com/
  • Three weeks ago , took delivery of archetype rims -105 hubs from just riding along - 32 hole, £242 delivered to the door, like some others I wasn't bothered about weight & just wanted reliability plus a wheel that could handle less than perfect roads. Took advice from ugo & bob's your uncle , JRA must be busy as I had to wait 3 weeks for delivery but it was worth it. They ride well & I'm just experimenting with tyre pressures (gives me something to fiddle with).
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    to CAmcycle1974: If the the rider gets out in all weathers, and I mean filthy conditions, then Miche hubs hands down. Shimano hubs fit this bill too but the budget would have to high enough for DA hubs to get the drillings and weight. Also the niche hubs now have an 11 speed HG free hub option. Novatec hubs are another option and they are lighter but the wet weather sealing is not as good as on the Miche hubs.

    To deignman: as I build with both magic open pro and DT Swiss rim the DT Swiss rims are fair better in every way. I always find the DT rims give a rounder wheel while keeping to same tension variation standard than wheels built with the open pro rim. I often find with the open pro the wheel is round but there is a blip in the roundness but the spokes in that area are the same tension as the rest of the wheel so I can,t true it out. The out of round is not enough for the rider to notice but since I can measure these things with the dial gauges I use I certainly notice it. Also the DT Swiss RR465 and the RR415 have thicker braking surfaces than the open pro. The Open PRo comes into its own as a light weight rim for those on a budget for that it is unbeatable.

    A 28h RR415 for the front And 32h RR465 on the rear is a very good combintion and is fine for riders with DA hubs for rider up to 90ish kg. This is because the front wheel is not as heavily loaded as the rear even though the RR415 is only rated up to 90kg (it is a very light rim).
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Mickyg88
    Mickyg88 Posts: 289
    Thecycleclinic seems to offer the best advice on here, will contact you after the Easter break, hope we can sort a deal guys.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    For what it's worth I wouldn't get too hung up on the words "handbuilt" or "factory built". Most wheels in the mid to upper quality ranges are "handbuilt". Whether they are DA wheels coming from a Shimano factory or Mavic top line hoops coming from the Mavic factory or "handbuilts" coming to you from a local builder, they are all worked on by human hands, laced by humans, trued by humans, inspected by humans, etc.
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    dennisn wrote:
    For what it's worth I wouldn't get too hung up on the words "handbuilt" or "factory built". Most wheels in the mid to upper quality ranges are "handbuilt". Whether they are DA wheels coming from a Shimano factory or Mavic top line hoops coming from the Mavic factory or "handbuilts" coming to you from a local builder, they are all worked on by human hands, laced by humans, trued by humans, inspected by humans, etc.

    I think the distinction is more to do with mass produced or individually crafted rather than handbuilt. Handbuilt can also mean on an assembly line where the wheels are all built to a certain spec. The thing with handbuilt is that you can tailor things to your own needs and also cut out some cost by buying direct from the builder.