another fast tyre request

Sprool

I have 2 big events coming up on MTB, the first is a 2 day ride about 45 miles a day along canal paths.
The second is a 4-day loop round Yorkshire over about 250 miles total.
I'm looking for a light, thin tyre (probably about 1.7mm?) that gives low tarmac rolling resistance yet has enough grip to cope with the off-road paths which will be mostly dirt/gravel and a couple of infrequent muddy bits.
The first ride will be about 80% canal paths. The second event will be about 70% tarmac (b-roads) but a very long final day on paths and bridleways.
Currently I have a set of Schwalbe city jet slicks for tarmac and also an old pair of Specialized Crossroads which are hard work, 1.95 thick and weigh a lot. I'm looking for something that makes it a bit easier over the long distances. Any recommendations gratefully received
Maybe a set of hybrid urban commuter type tyres would be the best compromise? As long as they have enough grip to do the paths.

mcnultycop

Sprool wrote:

I'm looking for a light, thin tyre (probably about 1.7mm?)

That is thin.

Barteos

Please don't automatically assume that narrower tyres are faster because they look or feel like that or "...because they have a smaller contact patch... etc"
Also weight (rotating or not) is overrated and will make very little difference to you time/speed.

IMO for the best on/off road compromise you need relatively smooth tyres for good rolling on tarmac but with enough volume/width to allow you to lower the pressure for off-road sections (to go faster). As the riding presumably isn't going to be technical you may be fine with no tread especially if you're careful in muddy places.

Depending on the actual terrain/surface you could consider Kojak 2.00", Pasela 1.75", Marathon Racer 1.75"... or wonderful Big Apples 2.35"... Personally I'd stay on the wider side of 2".
If you run your tyres tubeless, Super Motos 2.35" would be even better/faster. The width may be scary but these are are one of the fastest rolling tyres available. As they have no puncture protection belt they'd need to be run with Stans sealant.

Sprool

mcnultycop wrote:

Sprool wrote:

I'm looking for a light, thin tyre (probably about 1.7mm?)

That is thin.

:oops:

Sprool

For me it's counter-intuitive to NOT assume that a thin, light tyre with smooth profile and higher pressure will be easier/faster than a thick, wide, soft, heavy knobbly. Road bikes are faster than mountain bikes on tarmac.
This is why I was looking for something about 1.6 or 1.7" (not mm ) wide and probably a smooth centre tread and knobbly sides for a bit of grip off-road.
Is this the Pasela tyre you mention?
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/panaracer-pa ... ch-(37-559)-prod12511/
Not sure if the Schwalbe Marathon racer isn't a bit too slick for me, and at £31 a tyre its not going to fit my budget

Barteos

Sprool wrote:

For me it's counter-intuitive to NOT assume that a thin, light tyre with smooth profile and higher pressure will be easier/faster than a thick, wide, soft, heavy knobbly. Road bikes are faster than mountain bikes on tarmac.
This is why I was looking for something about 1.6 or 1.7" (not mm ) wide and probably a smooth centre tread and knobbly sides for a bit of grip off-road.
Is this the Pasela tyre you mention?
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/panaracer-pa ... ch-(37-559)-prod12511/
Not sure if the Schwalbe Marathon racer isn't a bit too slick for me, and at £31 a tyre its not going to fit my budget

Certainly counter intuitive but it's a pretty well researched subject in a last few years and wider is usually better.

Road tyres aren't faster than mountain bike ones because they are narrower but simply because they are designed to be fast and have thin and flexible casing in order to minimize rolling resistance. Coincidentally they end up quite lightweight but weight on its own doesn't make a tyre faster.
Due to the influence of a pro cycling scene and the marketers, manufacturers only offer the fastest tyres in 23mm and 25mm... and only occasionally in 28mm. That's another reason why people believe that narrow=fast.

The fastest +2.00" MTB cross country tyres (Furious Fred, Racing Ralph, Race King etc...) can be very lightweight and thin too and if you completely shaved them so they would end up as slicks, their rolling resistance would be comparable and in some cases better than the road ones...
If you shaved just centre knobs you would get some semi slicks rolling faster than any narrower touring tyre.

Many typical touring tyres are overbuilt for durability and puncture protection therefore the casing is less flexible and the tyre is slower.

If you want to keep it simple you can't go wrong with Paselas (your link). They are very popular among the touring crowd and as long as you're careful with the side walls they should work pretty well as an all-rounder. 1.75" would be my choice.

njee20

That's not really true... On rough terrain a wider softer tyre is faster (all other factors being equal) due to the lack of lost energy from the tyre bouncing around. But on tarmac a narrower harder tyre is. That's a sliding scale from perfect blacktop to crumbling potholed roads (where 25s may be faster), but you're sort of missing the point.

97th choice

Lots of bargain stuff on chain reaction that might suit, Michelin tracker, schwalbe speed cruiser, schwalbe land cruiser, continental race king.

Sprool

thanks for the comments and inputs, i will check out these brands, esp chain reaction, see if i can get anything in my budget

Barteos

njee20 wrote:

That's not really true... On rough terrain a wider softer tyre is faster (all other factors being equal) due to the lack of lost energy from the tyre bouncing around. But on tarmac a narrower harder tyre is. That's a sliding scale from perfect blacktop to crumbling potholed roads (where 25s may be faster), but you're sort of missing the point.

Of course it is true.

MTB tyres are indeed faster off road due to easier deflection of the casing. I'm glad we agree on this one.

On the road wider tyres still win though and this shouldn't be really debatable in 2013. Even the main tyre manufacturers admit this.
The established fact is that on a completely smooth surface, at the same pressure wider tyre has lower rolling resistance. Without getting into details it's mainly due to the way the tyre deflects and the shape (surface is identical) of the contact patch.

Obviously in real life one will run wider tyres slightly softer so say 23mm tyre at 120PSI may have the same rolling resistance as the 28mm at say 70-80PSI (using a 15% drop rule). You're already winning as you can be just at fast but more comfortable and safer with wider rubber...

That's only half of the picture though. The glass/laboratory floor tests show only the losses from hysteresis but don't take into account suspension losses occurring on real roads. It's the same as with mountain bike tyres but on a much smaller scale. You're losing energy because your tyres can't deflect enough.

I'm not aware of a one single test proving that narrow tyres are faster or/and that somehow 23mm or 25mm is "the best compromise". I mean a test, not an article or some simplified marketing blurb...

Oh and I completely don't care what the pros are using.

A bit of good reading
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/06/1 ... -of-tires/

The Rookie

The reason narrower tyres ARE faster on the road is aerodynamics, not rolling resistance, so unless you think you'll be topping 20mph regularly on the flat, they are of little benefit.

For a budget tyre the Schwalbe City Jets (circa £10-12 each) are superb, you need to up your spend to over £25 each to get much better.

45miles a day isn't that far......

Sprool

45 miles in a day on my MTB is quite long for me, but on the yorkshire 4-day event day 1 is 75 miles (80% tarmac) and day 4 is about 100 miles (60% on tarmac). This is a big cycle for me, esp on MTB, I want to give myself best chance to enjoy it, not fight it! City jets look too slick to me for off-road even if the going is dry. I like the look (and the price) of the schwalbe Land Cruisers with the raised centre ridge for smooth tarmac rolling but plenty of grip on the sides.
Just wish they were a bit lighter.

The Rookie

There are similar tyres

Hurricane http://schwalbe.co.uk/mtb/hurricane/
Sammy slick http://schwalbe.co.uk/mtb/sammy-slick/

Small block8 http://www.kendausa.com/en/home/bicycle ... eight.aspx
Happy Medium http://www.kendausa.com/en/home/bicycle ... edium.aspx

I have a Kenda I got at a bike shop sell off, can never find it elsewhere that is similar to the happy medium, no longer required and for sale at a sensible price....

Sprool

There's some interesting reading in the above posts, thanks for contributions. However, despite the articles I cannot dispute that cycling with my Schwalbe Sport contact slicks (1.6 - I made a mistake above, they are not city jets) on tarmac is way easier than cycling with my thicker knobblies on - the Specialized Crossroads 1.95 (old style ones, heavy) or my old set of Maxxis dy-no-mite 1.95's (which I've always liked for light off-road stuff). I like the look of the Hurricanes, might have to see whats available locally.