Campag rear mech indexing

lef

So...
Chorus 11 speed- pretty new
new campag cable inners and outers (replaced a couple of times)
external routing with plenty of length in the cables
mech hanger perfectly straight

I keep setting the indexing up and it seems to be changing fine on the stand but then after a couple of rides (sometimes straight away) the chain struggles to drop down onto the small sprocket, either not at all or a delay. There are no kinks in the cables etc. Seems really odd that it's just not setting up 100%. Any suggestions? Maybe the chain is still too taught though it's only as tight as pulling it through (no additional tension added, removed it all, still changes okay except the last sprocket). Tried playing around with the stops, little bit lower, dead level pulleys with sprocket etc but no luck yet.

Also, after having 10speed shimano for a few years and having no issues setting up clearly campag 11 speed is a little bit trickier. With Shimano, starting on the smallest sprocket and tightening the adjuster until the chain changes and any noise disappears used to work fine but with campag this method doesn't seem so great. With Campag I find having the chain on about the 4th or 5th sprocket and lengthening the cable until the chain drops down works much better as far as getting a smooth set up (other than the problem above). Keen to hear any tips from old hands in setting up campag 11sp rear mech?

mrdsgs

Either way should work if you have cable pinch bolt set correctly, assuming correct chain length.

My guess is too much cable tension and/or outer limit screw too tight.

Start on big front ring, disconnect cable altogether, chain should naturally drop to smallest sprocket. Check vertical alignment between pulleys and small sprocket. Release outer limit screw a bit if you can for now. Then connect cable and recheck vertical alignment. Then proceed as normal. The other culprit could be accumulated gunge in the rear mech preventing the mech naturally moving out far enough.

lef

the alignment and limit screw positions are good so I'm pretty sure it's not that. I just had a tinker and noticed that when changing gear there was a squeak (new development) that sounded like it was coming from the cable adjuster on the frame though in actual fact it was coming from the cable guide on the underside of the bottom bracket. I sprayed some WD40 on it and it went but also there seems to be a little less resistance on the shifters now. Maybe the accumulated dirt was adding some unwanted resistance.

Does anyone swap the frames BB cable guides for the specific campag ones? Is it really essential for smooth shifting? Campag seem to think so.

Monty Dog

Sticky downshift is pretty likely to be dirty cables. Fully shielded systems like Gore or Nokon are a big help in this respect.

lef

I'm tempted with nokon but isnt it a bit prone to squeaks? I have to ride in silent bliss so it might drive me crazy having to keep lubing the individual bits?

schofie

I always spray some teflon lube down all cable outers before installing. Not sure if that might help?

Monty Dog

Try blasting GT85 or WD40 down the outers to flush them out. A drop of chain lube on the cables helps reduce friction too.

I run a couple of bikes with Nokons, they are fit and forget - one is 8 years and still going, would have replaced regular cables at least every 2-3 years typically. They only squeak if not correctly installed.

cycleclinic

Nokon's though have those lovely links to make the outer, worth it just for that.

gfk_velo

General tip ...

Don't blast any spray lubes directly down cables - some propellants will eventually degrade the liners in the housings so causing the cables to stick. Use a thin lube like ProGold Prolink - they make a cable oiler specifically for this purpose.

Campag specifically ... the first thing we need to know is how old are the levers and RD? Are they current production or pre 2011 (if current, the "11" is in red).

There is a standard test that will establish whether you are suffering from either insufficient return spring tension (happened occasionally on earlier versions of 11s) or friction in the outers / cable tunnel areas.

If that can be eliminated, then you can look at basic rear gear set up, possible causes in the lever, or other factors such as ferrules bedding in.

The test needs the chain removing from passage through the rear derailleur so that the RD is completely free to move from side to side. Rather than breaking the chain, remove the jockey wheels from the RD and the chain can then hang free.

Fit a new gear inner - you will need the full length of the inner. When fitting it, allow the nipple end to hang outside the lever (but make sure the cable has actually passed through the cable bush that it needs to seat into, rather than around it). Make sure the inner is firmly clamped at the rear derailleur end.

Hang a 1kg weight from the nipple of the gear cable. This might need a bit of ingenuity, as you don't want to damage the nipple or kink the cable.

Once the gear cable is loaded with the 1kg weight, manually push the rear derailleur towards the low gear position. when you let the rear gear go from any point in it's lateral travel, the spring in the RD should overcome the 1kg weight and return the RD to the high gear position.

If the spring overcomes the 1kg weight successfully, the problem with the shift is not in the cable system. If it doesn't, there is friction somewhere in the cable system too great for the springing in the RD to overcome and that is what is generating the problem with the shift, assuming all other parameters are correct.

Possible friction points / points where problems occur are:
Use Campag Ultra-Smooth (CG-RE600) cable outers, not the older CG-RE500 - they don't fit the 11s levers correctly.
Use Campag metal ferrules. Do not use plastic ones,
The cut ends of the outers need to be cut square, with no strands of the outer protruding*.
Ensure that the liner inside the cable outer is not damaged at the cut ... so the opening needs to be cleanly open*.
Ensure that the cut ends of the outer are properly round*.
Ensure that the small brass-coloured disc is still present in the base of the cable ports on the levers. This does the job of a ferrule.
Ensure that the outers are fully inserted into the ports on the levers with no ferrule.
We generally recommend running the routing of the gear cables around the inside of the bend on the 'bars.
Ensure that you are using tunnels under the BB that are in good condition and that they are securely fixed and conform accurately in shape to the BB shell so that no part of the tunnel stands proud of the BB shell*.
Do not cross the cables under the downtube. Doing so can add friction*.

That should do it. Points with asterisks, by the way, are relevant for all other derailleur systems.

If after all of that, you still have a shift issue, please contact me at the main UK Campag Service Centre - Velotech Cycling Ltd - and we will see what we can do to resolve it for you. My email address is velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com

lef

Great, thanks for all those suggestions. They were new 2012 components...at least they were sold as 2012. the '11' is a white square with carbon showing through on the numbers which is as per the campag website.

The bit about the routing across the front of the bars is interesting as I have them routed across the back. I'll give this a go. I thought across the back would be better due to a gentler bend.

One thing I did question was the amount of friction that the metal ferrules create because of the rubber rings to the inside. The friction seems a little excessive and on the rear mech routing there are three of these so surely these can add up to create significant resistance.

Also I swapped over the bb guide for the campag one. I think it's maybe made a slight improvement but its still sometimes dragging when dropping to the smallest sprocket.

One other thing to note I'm running an 11sp KMC chain. Should I try a Campag chain? There seems to be plenty running a KMC chain with campag without issue.

gfk_velo

Hi Lef ... the Campag system is designed to run with those ferrules in place - if you miss them out, you will get issues, ditto if you use plastic ferrules. Believe me, the number of bikes we see at Sportifs with issues as a result of incorect termination of the outers is legion.

11s chain - fit a Campag. I know they are a slight PITA to join but the system is just that - a system. It'll run better, quieter and you won't get a potential chainsuck issue so easily, that we have seen running KMC on Campag 11s.

Do try the 1kg test .... it's definitive. If the RD passes it, then the problem is somewhere else. It factors in the friction from the ferrules etc.

BTW, Scofie, if you are reading this, thanks very much for your PM but I can't reply to it due to some peculiarity of the system - if you'd like to mail me at velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, I can reply to your query with regard to lever servicing.

schofie

Will do sir.

nicklloyd

Wish I'd seen that advice from gfk_velo a couple of years ago. I have Super Record 11 and always had issues with downshifts. Never had a bike/groupset give me so much grief. I replaced all cables as I had come to the conclusion it was a cable friction issue. First time replaced with a new set of campag cables and then again with Gore.

I fitted Gore Professional cables and it has been faultless since. So I can't give them anything but praise.

I actually think the friction in mine was caused by the internal cable routing but I wish I had known this test to confirm the problem rather than tweaking gears for weeks. The gore system ran a tube through my frame that I like help eliminate this.

I also found with campag 11 that barrel adjustments need to be 1/4 turns rather than half when adjusting up or down.

Nick

lef

So I got round to re-routing the cables via the front of the bars as opposed to the rear as suggested by gfk_velo. It worked a treat and changing is silky smooth now. Thanks for the great advice!

cycleclinic

I have had to the axact same thing with bikes built by distributors. You would think the distributor would know better.