Between frame sizes - go up or down?

Grellow
Grellow Posts: 14
edited January 2013 in Road buying advice
I'm looking to buy my first road bike, coming from a hybrid (mostly used on roads). I've tried several bikes so far, and narrowed my choice to a couple of "relaxed-style" models [Specialized Roubaix and Trek Domane 4]. My issue is choosing the frame size - I seem to be in-between two sizes.

Everyone in every bike shop starts by recommending a 54 frame. (I'm a smidgeon over 5' 8".) But each time I take a test ride, I find the reach is too long, and it's uncomfortable to the point of getting pains in my shoulder within an hour. The bike shop responses have been: (a) try a shorter stem (as much as 2cm shorter), or (b) try a 52 frame instead.

Option (a), the shorter stem, feels noticeably more twitchy on the steering, but not to the point of being dangerous (I think ... though it might be worse on a high-speed descent!). I steel feel the reach is a bit long, by about another 2cm, but further option could be to get handlebars with a shallower distance from top bar to brake/hood.

Option (b) generally feels like the right reach without any adjustment, but everything else feels more cramped. Also my arms feel like they are bearing a lot more weight. (Not suprising I guess since the bar is lower, because the frame is smaller throughout.)

More importantly: several people have advised that I should be able to gradually increase my reach, as I cycle more and get used to a road bike position. (I'm mid-forties and not very flexible right now.) So, if I start with an adjusted 54 I can lengthen the stem again, and go back to deeper bars. Or if I start with a standard 52, I can add a longer stem, and/or get deeper bars, as I start to get more flexible. Also on both bikes, gradually lowering the bars (removing spacers) as I get used to things, will have the effect of lengthening the reach as well.

Am I right about the stuff above, or have I misunderstood something?

And is it better to start with the larger frame, with shallower stem/bars, and hope to lengthen back into the default setup ... OR start with the smaller bike and be ready to lengthen the reach if necessary?

Many thanks for any suggestions! :D

Comments

  • rc856
    rc856 Posts: 1,144
    I'd go smaller. I was riding a Giant frame for years that I bought on the Internet based on my height without taking advice. Had to use a 70mm stem but it felt comfy for those years until I recently got a new Giant frame.
    I was better armed with more knowledge and had a proper fit.
    Dropped a frame size and have a longer stem and it's so much more comfortable.
  • For what its worth make sure the fit is being done correctly. I was advised for years to get a 56 frame and shorten the stem but it never felt right and affected the steering. Got a proper fit done (where they start at the cleat position, work up to the saddle/seatpost, and then forward to stem/bar reach/bar width and bar drop) and immediately it became apparent to get me knee plumb line over the pedal axle I needed a zero set back seat post rather than the standard setback most bikes come with. When we did this I was able to get a 110mm stem rather than the 90mm stem I had. So the 56cm frame was always correct but bike shops had tried to sort my fit with stems and bars rather than looking initially at how I was sat over the bike. I am much more comfortable now. Obviously have a slightly odd shape!
  • Dear doubter,

    Im an experienced riders/ sales assistant/ bikefitter from the Netherlands and currently work in Belgium. The 'problem' you describe is a very common one. First of all the decision to go for the Domane or Roubaix rather than their more race-inspired cousins seems wise since you complain about the limitation of stretch in you back. The toptubes and headtubes of these bikes are considerably longer (around 1,5-2cm) and will allow for a more upright position compared to i.e. madone H2 or Tarmac comp or pro (not that these bikes also come in different fit options). However these bikes will still give you a much more flat and stretched out riding position than you current hybrid bike. The necessary stretch on a full road bike (either domane, madone etc) allow you to ride in a more efficient position in terms of aerodynamics but just as important in terms of muscle capacity. Probably this is why you want to make the shift in the first place. However this is not the be all end all when it comes to choosing the bike right for you. Look at your hip and knee angle (around 25-30o) and compare which one give you must freedom on movement. This also counts for your upper body joints, your shoulders, elbows and wrists. My mantra often is (especially for not overly athletic and flexible riders) the more freedom of movement you have, the easier it is to get in a comfortable position and subsequently the faster you can go. Getting more experience on the road bike you will be able to sustain longer periods in the drops and also be able to stretch more onto the hoods.

    My advise to you (without having seen you on the bike!) is that unless you want to pick up crit-racing in the future to go for the larger bike (54), with a shorter stem (80-90mm) and short (reach) and shallow drops otherwise known as compact bends. Another tip is to move the shifters up on the bars a little (seen on cyclo-cross bikes). This set up will be the most versatile and allows you to slowly dial into the position without risk of strain and injury. A smaller bike will put more stress on your upper body and in the long run will make longer rides unpleasant.

    My last little tip is something hard to measure but important to get right and it's about weight distribution to the wheels. Generally a 60-40% (rear-front) while seated should be ideal. It's all about striking a balance and takes more than a ride around the parking lot to get right.

    Both are a very quality ride and should put a big fat smile on you face.

    Good luck
    &
    Enjoy!
  • Bobbinogs
    Bobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    Go down a size not up. Having a smaller frame is a blast and you can throw it around to bring a smile on your face...at least that's what I have found.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    I would say that as a general rule you have a better chance of fitting a smaller frame to you that trying to make a larger one fit.

    If the top tube length is too long you are always going to struggle.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • Grellow
    Grellow Posts: 14
    Many thanks for all the replies here. :D - especially Chris for your very detailed post.

    Last night I went to see my physio, who I'd forgotten is a very keen cyclist. His advice was very similar to Chris's:
    My advise to you (without having seen you on the bike!) is that unless you want to pick up crit-racing in the future to go for the larger bike (54), with a shorter stem (80-90mm) and short (reach) and shallow drops otherwise known as compact bends. Another tip is to move the shifters up on the bars a little (seen on cyclo-cross bikes). This set up will be the most versatile and allows you to slowly dial into the position without risk of strain and injury. A smaller bike will put more stress on your upper body and in the long run will make longer rides unpleasant.

    As I cycle (and stretch!) more, hopefully I can gradually 'lengthen' my reach by 4cm. At which point the default stem and bars on the larger frame should fit nicely.

    Would be very glad to hear about similar experiences. Has anyone found their reach lengthened gradually, after moving to a road bike?

    Thanks again. :D
  • Evil Laugh
    Evil Laugh Posts: 1,412
    My reach has lengthened 20mm over the years.
  • Grellow
    Grellow Posts: 14
    Evil Laugh wrote:
    My reach has lengthened 20mm over the years.

    Thanks for the reply. Do you mind me asking how old and flexible you were before and after? :)

    I'm in my mid-forties, and done very little exercise in the last 5 years. I'm hoping I can get quite a lot more flexible than I am currently.
  • jotko
    jotko Posts: 457
    There is only 11mm difference in ETT between a 52 and 54 Roubaix frame - basically one stem size.

    I would have thought it is more important to get the seat to bar drop right, going up or down 1cm in stem is not going to make a lot of difference to handling.

    I would choose a 54 frame rather than a 52 with 6ft of spacers to get the bars the right height :lol:
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    Dont forget that the smaller frame will also have a shorter headtube making the drop to the bars greater which isnt good for inflexible people with weak cores. Get a Retul bike fit and you will then know what all the measurements should be for you, then you can buy a bike accordingly. After riding a hybrid a proper road bike is going to feel weird for a short while.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    Interesting... my feeling is a bit different... I'd say go bigger with a shorter stem. Your problem, it seems, is your current flexibility, which will improve as you ride, and hopefully do some stretching. Then you'll be able to go lower and longer on the bike. Then the bike will fit better. If you go small now then as you become more flexible you'll need a long stem, which means it'll handle like a barge.

    Obviously there are a number of assumptions in all this, like a) you will become more flexible (some people are just stiff and always will be) and b) I don't know what stem length we're talking here - I'd say <80 is 'short' 100-110 is the sweet spot and 130+ is 'long'.

    There's a bloke in our club that's the same - he chooses to ride a small frame because he's so upright/inflexible. Every time I ride with him I keep saying - do some stretching man, you're far too upright... If he could just touch his toes :roll:
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • Evil Laugh
    Evil Laugh Posts: 1,412
    Actually I would suggest going up a size makes the bike feel "like a barge". You move a bike by leaning and moving your weight, not turning the bars.

    It gets missed on here a lot the effect weight distribution and wheelbase and therefore frame size has on the bike handling. It makes the difference between a horrible and great riding bike. Most people can choose between a couple of sizes.

    I would rather have a couple of spacers on a great handling bike and therefore would always go for the smaller frame with longer stem should the drop to bars be ok. A longer stem is going to give you more stability climbing on the tops, out of the saddle and when descending. It also means you have more weight over the front wheel giving better control.

    As an example I ride a 54 Tarmac at 5'11". I could easily be set up on a 56 with the same contact points and fit using stock stem and post etc. It would look good in the your bikes page with a slammed stem but I have ridden my bike in a 56 and it was rubbish. The 54 feels taut and responsive, very manoeuvrable and frankly awesome out of the saddle. The 56 feels like riding a completely different machine, hard work.

    Critical thing though is being comfortable with the increased drop on a smaller frame.
  • passout
    passout Posts: 4,425
    I'd say 54cm. The main thing is effective top tube length though, this is a different measurement to frame size.
    One of the things that will make the biggest difference is the height of the handlebars - sportive bikes have higher bars (due to longer head tubes) which is more comfortable for many. Also go for shallow drop bars & remember saddle position.
    'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Always go for the smaller size. I've had frames that were too big (even by only a centimeter on the TT) and I felt incredibly uncomfortable. Also I hate the twitchiness that's associated with shorter stems. I'm 5' 11" and ride Spec in a 54...
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • I'd say look very carefully at the geometry tables of the two bikes and try and work out what is important to you. In particular look at the stack and reach figures. This is especially the case on the very small frames. In my case I was looking at a Cervelo frame sizes 48 and 51. The reach figures are actually only a few mm different between these two frames (9mm), but the stack height difference is much bigger (25mm) so would result in a much bigger saddle to bar drop (or a lot of spacers).
  • ricky1980
    ricky1980 Posts: 891
    definitely go smaller size then you have a lot more scope to play around with the ride position...you can go for large reach handle bars or long stems or flat stems or integrated handle bars, set backs on the seat posts...etc

    go large size you will be needing short stems with massive angles flipped up and short reach handle bars which are not readily available in top range products i.e. extremely expensive if you want them light weight or wing shaped etc
    Road - Cannondale CAAD 8 - 7.8kg
    Road - Chinese Carbon Diablo - 6.4kg
  • Raffles
    Raffles Posts: 1,137
    biggest issue facing the op is bar height, if he goes for the 52 the headtube will be real short and a stack of spacers will be required :cry: , im 5 ft 9 and my bike is a 54cm caad 8 with 545mm toptube. the 52cm model was far too low for me and id have needed lots of spacers and this was a big no :!: the standard 20mm setback was too long for me and i bought a controltech seatpost which has 10mm setback and makes things just right. for handlebars i use 42cm fsa omega compact which are just terrific and i strongly recommend them to the op. my saddle is the uber comfy selle san marco rolls with titanium rails and i find that with the tip of the saddle to the centre of the screw that compresses the headset distance of 378mm then my kops position is bang on. 170mm cranks are a must for me as any longer gave me knee pains. feel free to pm me with any fit questions as i understand exactly what you are saying in relation to your sizing issue........ive been there myself :D
    2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 105
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    So there you have it half of us say small the other say big.

    Definitive enough for you?

    THE only way you will know is to ride both sizes.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • ShutUpLegs
    ShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    The bigger frame may feel like you are sitting on the bike, the smaller frame sitting in the bike.
  • jonomc4
    jonomc4 Posts: 891
    I have the issue of being between sizes. On my race orientated bike the slightly larger frame works best - on my tourer / commuter I wish I had gone for the one size down option
  • passout
    passout Posts: 4,425
    Raffles wrote:
    biggest issue facing the op is bar height, if he goes for the 52 the headtube will be real short and a stack of spacers will be required :cry: , im 5 ft 9 and my bike is a 54cm caad 8 with 545mm toptube. the 52cm model was far too low for me and id have needed lots of spacers and this was a big no :!: the standard 20mm setback was too long for me and i bought a controltech seatpost which has 10mm setback and makes things just right. for handlebars i use 42cm fsa omega compact which are just terrific and i strongly recommend them to the op. my saddle is the uber comfy selle san marco rolls with titanium rails and i find that with the tip of the saddle to the centre of the screw that compresses the headset distance of 378mm then my kops position is bang on. 170mm cranks are a must for me as any longer gave me knee pains. feel free to pm me with any fit questions as i understand exactly what you are saying in relation to your sizing issue........ive been there myself :D

    Agreed - it's height just as much as reach and in this regard the 54cm will be better.

    Also this:
    http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... table=true

    Especially this:
    If you are bridging two different frame sizes, the deciding factor is usually your reach. To find out whether you have a longer or shorter reach, you should work out your "ape" index. Measure your arm span and subtract your height: if the result is a positive number, try the larger frame size first, if the result is negative, then instead try the smaller frame size first.
    I've heard this elsewhere, might help those between sizes.
    'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.
  • Raffles
    Raffles Posts: 1,137
    planet x sell frames from a company called sarto and they are very affordable. the frame material is steel and you can custom spec your tube lengths. using my experiences in the past, a custom frame with top tube length 540mm and headtube height 165mm with fork stem length allowing 20 mm of spacers would be very cushty for the op.

    if he doesnt like steel frames, tad more weight but oodles of comfort btw, he should look at the trek bikes with the H3 type sizing as these have monster headtube sizing which should result in an increased upright sitting position.
    2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 105
  • blackpoolkev
    blackpoolkev Posts: 474
    edited January 2013
    Cannondale's comfy sportive bike may fit you better,their size guide shows a 54cm Synapse suitable for 5ft 7in-5ft 10in.Heavily discounted 54cm Synapse here-http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m7b65s6p4324&rs=gb&vid=15947
    My brother is 5/9 and has recently bought a 54cm Hi-Mod Synapse(same geometry). He says it's a perfect fit.Even bigger discount here but more pennies-http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/bikes-c5/road-bikes-c18/cannondale-synapse-carbon-hi-mod-ultegra-road-bike-2012-p209147
  • ricky1980
    ricky1980 Posts: 891
    Raffles wrote:
    biggest issue facing the op is bar height, if he goes for the 52 the headtube will be real short and a stack of spacers will be required

    you can buy 17 degree stems and flip it
    Road - Cannondale CAAD 8 - 7.8kg
    Road - Chinese Carbon Diablo - 6.4kg
  • Raffles
    Raffles Posts: 1,137
    ricky1980 wrote:
    Raffles wrote:
    biggest issue facing the op is bar height, if he goes for the 52 the headtube will be real short and a stack of spacers will be required

    you can buy 17 degree stems and flip it


    i dont think the op wants to ride a bike that looks ridiculous
    2012 Cannondale CAAD 8 105
  • I am also an 'inbetweener' & have a chose the smaller 54 for my Canyon & also the 54 for my Roubaix. Don't regret it at all, both are very comfy rides. The staff at the Spesh store in Covent Garden did have to play around with the stem angles & lengths & also saddle fore/aft to get the right measurements, but it is spot on for me now. I can ride comfortably all day in it without any jip whatsoever. I have had a frame which has been a wee bit big for me before & i tried to make it work but in the end had to admit defeat with it & sell up.
  • velohutts
    velohutts Posts: 288
    there are loads of variables for frame sizing from brand to brand , all the geometry is available on the internet.
    What type of riding are you likely to be doing ? will you be riding on the top,hoods,drops primarily ? I go with the top tube length as the overriding size (within reason on the seattube) and this works for me.
    I think most of us have at some point had a play around with seatpost , stem , saddle placement to get the 'perfect' fit.
    The 50/50 split on advice to your question shows how we are all slightly different from things like back - leg - arm length ratio mix some flexibility in and preferred riding style and ultimatley it will come down to what initally fits best , note all the measurements for every angle then have some quality time in the man cave moving it around till it feels 'right'.
    Good luck with the purchase & enjoy the fettling.
    Enigma Esprit Di2 - Go tI ! Summer !
  • Evil Laugh
    Evil Laugh Posts: 1,412
    Fact is both a 54 or 52 can probably be made to fit with the same saddle height, reach and drop to bars.

    Although they will both fit the same they will feel very different to ride.

    It's up to you to decide which you prefer. Go to a good shop who will set a couple of bikes up for you in different sizes to test ride. A synapse, h3 trek or roubaix sounds like a good choice for you.

    Remember you can work on inflexibility quite quickly but you can not shrink the size of a bike frame.
  • Regarding the Specialized Roubaix "at a smidgeon over 5' 8"" then it is a logical conclusion that "every bike shop starts by recommending a 54cm frame"; they naturally need to start somewhere, I would have tried that size as a first as well, but yes a 52cm is also a relevant size to try; to reassure you that your current train of thought is along the correct lines then as a starting point the Specialized Roubaix sizing chart states:

    Specialized Roubaix 52cm: 5' 5" - 5' 8"
    Specialized Roubaix 54cm 5' 8" - 5' 10"

    Just to dot an 'i' and cross a 't' was the original stem on the Roubaix flat or flipped to the raised angle? If flat then try it flipped, Specialized fit a 12 degree stem as standard but also offer a 24 degree that the store will be able to swap for you if needbe. Without seeing you on one then it's hard to say for sure of course, all I can do is give you a few pointers, many Specialized stores have experienced BG fit staff who should be able to help, the more data the better but there really is no substitute for seeing a rider in cycling kit, shoes and pedals on a bike in front of you.

    Yes your personal physical dimensions are part of the equation that go into the final set up, along with flexibility, short and long term goals, current fitness levels, short-long term injuries, plus the familiarity of what you have been used to play a part, the new bike position may well be correct in every way yet so unfamiliar compared to your current set up that it feels more than is wrong, that is where an experienced bike fitter will be able to help and reassure you. Your position will evolve as you evolve as a rider, they will normally fit you to the rider you are right now to allow for a gradual transition to the rider you want to be, but they will also be able to advise you how the current position will evolve as you do, factoring in this evolution will also play a part in the final choice of size.

    Paul