Carbon wheels from China ?

shedhead

As title basically. Has anyone got good or bad reviews from buying carbon wheels from China ? I'm toying with the idea of getting a pair of these :-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271045696871? ... 1423.l2649

These would be my first pair of carbon rims for my road bike (Zerofour works hp), does anyone have advice on rim depth too? ie 38mm or 50mm etc? any benefits to a particular depth?

Thanks in advance for any replies

ugo.santalucia

There is a long thread on chinese wheels, just scroll down in this section or use the search option and you will find it... no point in going through the same topic again

danlikesbikes

Lots of things to cover to answer your questions but hope this helps;

* Rim depth the deeper the depth of the wheel the more areo they are thus more efficient though only at or above a typical speed, however the deeper they are the more heavy they are (so less suited to climbing) & also the more issues you may have riding in a cross wind as they act can act as a sail.

* The majority of carbon wheels from bargain basement to high end named manufacturers tend to come from the far east. However often the lesser known names (often found on ebay etc) are factories that also make for some of the branded manufacturers. There are a few & am sure that a quick search on the forums will point you in the right direction. An example of this would be http://www.fuertebici.com who are a UK based company who have their rims made in the far east & branded up in their own logos as do http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/c/q/wheels the advantage of using a UK company would be you will find it easier to get replacement parts, get the wheels services or trued and as a UK company the warranty you get will be easier to apply if need.

shedhead

Hi dan,

thanks for your reply, that's very helpful. In your opinion are carbon rims overkill for "normal" riding, that is not racing. i currently run some Kysrium ssc's which are great & quick. I just feel like a change. Are there any pitfalls with carbon rims ?

smidsy

They prpbably are overkill but they do look good :-)

If they are full cabon (i.e have carbon braking surface) then for me there is an issue with braking. They take a lot of getting use to, require specific brake blocks, do not offer the same stopping power and can de-laminate if you abuse them - so no good for alpine riding etc.

ugo.santalucia

smidsy wrote:

They prpbably are overkill but they do look good :-)

If they are full cabon (i.e have carbon braking surface) then for me there is an issue with braking. They take a lot of getting use to, require specific brake blocks, do not offer the same stopping power and can de-laminate if you abuse them - so no good for alpine riding etc.

Dry alpine descending is fine, as long as you have enough experience. Many UK riders have hardly been down a slope at all, so maybe carbon rims are not the way to go... others are veterans of the alpine descents. You really need a lot of experience... when and how to apply the brakes.

mallorcajeff

stick with your mavics far better wheels

kingrollo

for £399 at planet X - you can get carbon clinchers with an alloy rim and braking surface. Cheap, Robust, & look the part - if youre not racing and just want some carbon - these IMO are a good deal

redjeepǃ

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

At least if you buy through PX, it's their problem if/ when it breaks.

Raffles

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

redjeepǃ

Raffles wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

No. It's not nonsense and your comment supports exactly what I'm saying. The point is that the branded products are making sure that quality control is being done and that's part of the reason behind the price difference. If you buy direct I don't expect you'll have any comeback if your carbon wheels collapse.

You'd be shocked at just how much business I do directly with Chinese manufacturing companies each month in my work, and how many quality issues I deal with. And that's from companies for whom I represent a significant proportion of their total business.

ricky1980

Redjeep! wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

No. It's not nonsense and your comment supports exactly what I'm saying. The point is that the branded products are making sure that quality control is being done and that's part of the reason behind the price difference. If you buy direct I don't expect you'll have any comeback if your carbon wheels collapse.

You'd be shocked at just how much business I do directly with Chinese manufacturing companies each month in my work, and how many quality issues I deal with. And that's from companies for whom I represent a significant proportion of their total business.

So you are saying just because planet x sticks their decals on the wheels it automatically grant a level of QA but if I buy from the same factory direct all if the sudden the QA is not there? So Planet x has someone sitting in the Chinese factory monitoring the manufacturing process and testing the wheels where the same wheels for direct buys are made with different machines in a separate room with some what sigificanly reduced level of quality consistency?! Are you not simply saying buying from branded there is warranty replacement in case of failure where direct the warranty is limited and difficult to get replacement? As opposed to accusing lack of QA between branded and unbranded?

ricky1980

If there is such QA issue why are all the bikes (nearly all) are made in china nowadays?

cougie

If you've a recognised brand to protect maybe your quality standards will be higher than an unnamed product ?
Quality testing can be done to many different levels depending on what you want to do.

ugo.santalucia

Given the prices Planet X does, there is no reason to buy direct from China right now. Warranty issue can become problematic and certainly sending the wheels back is expensive and time consuming. For a product to be sent you are typically looking at 2-3 weeks... then there are VAT and import duties, which can be as much as 25% of the total value of the goods...
Risky business to save very little

smidsy

ricky1980 wrote:

If there is such QA issue why are all the bikes (nearly all) are made in china nowadays?

Because its VERY cheap and even allowing for a higher waste ratio still saves the big names MILLIONS.

smidsy

ricky1980 wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

No. It's not nonsense and your comment supports exactly what I'm saying. The point is that the branded products are making sure that quality control is being done and that's part of the reason behind the price difference. If you buy direct I don't expect you'll have any comeback if your carbon wheels collapse.

You'd be shocked at just how much business I do directly with Chinese manufacturing companies each month in my work, and how many quality issues I deal with. And that's from companies for whom I represent a significant proportion of their total business.

So you are saying just because planet x sticks their decals on the wheels it automatically grant a level of QA but if I buy from the same factory direct all if the sudden the QA is not there? So Planet x has someone sitting in the Chinese factory monitoring the manufacturing process and testing the wheels where the same wheels for direct buys are made with different machines in a separate room with some what sigificanly reduced level of quality consistency?! Are you not simply saying buying from branded there is warranty replacement in case of failure where direct the warranty is limited and difficult to get replacement? As opposed to accusing lack of QA between branded and unbranded?

Differing quality standards from the same production line is nothing new - supermarket suppliers have been doing it for years.

E.G - M&S get the best, Sainsbury's next, then the other major brands and finally with the lowest quality the 'own brand' items.

The different customers simpy set different standards that the manufacturer has to meet.

ricky1980

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Given the prices Planet X does, there is no reason to buy direct from China right now. Warranty issue can become problematic and certainly sending the wheels back is expensive and time consuming. For a product to be sent you are typically looking at 2-3 weeks... then there are VAT and import duties, which can be as much as 25% of the total value of the goods...
Risky business to save very little

+1 for your point of view there.

but I still don't see the point being 1 with label and 1 without label and somehow the one with label is all of the sudden superior.

Success of a brand has something to do with the actual product being good (not necessarily the best) as well as a HUGE input from marketing people. I can totally understand why brand charge more for their products cos they spent loads more on getting people to buy into their brand. on the other hand knowing the same thing rolls off the same production line, i don't see how all of sudden that item has become inferior (in terms of quality) as the branded item.

i appreciate the quality control may differ on the lines, therefore branded products may have the waste/bad crop taken off at source. But to suggest that the manufacturing production line consistently produce sub-par products at what appear to be way above acceptable level would mean the manufacturer will incur a massive over head which surely will mean the business can't run like that.

I am not running the factory nor do i run any supply line for any shops that source these wheels from china. So really my point of view is just an opinion and what i perceive as common sense, but if the real situation is as daft as prescribed then fair enough.

redjeepǃ

ricky1980 wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

No. It's not nonsense and your comment supports exactly what I'm saying. The point is that the branded products are making sure that quality control is being done and that's part of the reason behind the price difference. If you buy direct I don't expect you'll have any comeback if your carbon wheels collapse.

You'd be shocked at just how much business I do directly with Chinese manufacturing companies each month in my work, and how many quality issues I deal with. And that's from companies for whom I represent a significant proportion of their total business.

So you are saying just because planet x sticks their decals on the wheels it automatically grant a level of QA but if I buy from the same factory direct all if the sudden the QA is not there? So Planet x has someone sitting in the Chinese factory monitoring the manufacturing process and testing the wheels where the same wheels for direct buys are made with different machines in a separate room with some what sigificanly reduced level of quality consistency?! Are you not simply saying buying from branded there is warranty replacement in case of failure where direct the warranty is limited and difficult to get replacement? As opposed to accusing lack of QA between branded and unbranded?

Probably a combination of the two. I would be very surprised if Planet X don't impose some form of QA on what they receive and then sell from the Chinese supplier. They probably have some form of incoming inspection and will be able to get warranty replacements from the supplier on anything returned to them (Planet X). If they're slightly more proactive then they may well track failures and tell their suppliers that they're having problems with for example, bearing failures and the supplier will have to put a plan in place to fix it.

Some of the premium that Planet X charge will be to cover some of these issues and to cover the cost that they will incur with warranty replacements. I'd say that as an individual you'd have limited success getting a warranty replacement directly from the supplier (although I may be wrong on this), but would expect something from a major brand.

The other side of it is that the less scrupulous Chinese suppliers may well be tempted to stream anything that fails or is borderline fail on quality into a different market than onto somebody like Planet X, or Trek or Spec or any other large company with big buying power they deal with.

For instance, if they were to receive a batch of 10,000 ball bearings that were just outside of a tolerance spec, what do you think they'd do with them ?

a) Return them and probably have to wait a month for the next delivery?
b) Assemble them into a wheel bearing and then sell it to their biggest customer or
c) Sell it to somebody who's never bought anything from them before and may never buy again ?

The most likely outcome is probably c) and maybe b) if they thought that they could get away with it.

I'm not saying this because I think that Chinese manufacturing quality sucks and I'm certainly not saying that all of their products are shoddy, but they really are 20 years behind in terms of manufacturing culture. Think of the difference between Japanese and British car manufacturers in the '80's and you won't be far wrong.

Again, as I said before, my opinions are based on >25 years in manufacturing, working with some of the best known companies in the world and daily experience over the past couple of years dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies.

To sum up my opinion, I'd say that you're more likely to have a quality problem with a Chinese manufactured item than a European or USA made item but if you buy it from a major brand supplier you are at least reasonably protected if it fails, but will pay some form of premium for this.

ugo.santalucia

Redjeep! wrote:

ricky1980 wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

My feelings, which come from direct & extensive experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies, is that the cost difference is due to their complete lack of any understanding of the concept of quality control.

.

thats utter nonsense.

you would be shocked at just how many branded products there are on the roads that come from chinese manufacturing origin.

No. It's not nonsense and your comment supports exactly what I'm saying. The point is that the branded products are making sure that quality control is being done and that's part of the reason behind the price difference. If you buy direct I don't expect you'll have any comeback if your carbon wheels collapse.

You'd be shocked at just how much business I do directly with Chinese manufacturing companies each month in my work, and how many quality issues I deal with. And that's from companies for whom I represent a significant proportion of their total business.

So you are saying just because planet x sticks their decals on the wheels it automatically grant a level of QA but if I buy from the same factory direct all if the sudden the QA is not there? So Planet x has someone sitting in the Chinese factory monitoring the manufacturing process and testing the wheels where the same wheels for direct buys are made with different machines in a separate room with some what sigificanly reduced level of quality consistency?! Are you not simply saying buying from branded there is warranty replacement in case of failure where direct the warranty is limited and difficult to get replacement? As opposed to accusing lack of QA between branded and unbranded?

Probably a combination of the two. I would be very surprised if Planet X don't impose some form of QA on what they receive and then sell from the Chinese supplier. They probably have some form of incoming inspection and will be able to get warranty replacements from the supplier on anything returned to them (Planet X). If they're slightly more proactive then they may well track failures and tell their suppliers that they're having problems with for example, bearing failures and the supplier will have to put a plan in place to fix it.

Some of the premium that Planet X charge will be to cover some of these issues and to cover the cost that they will incur with warranty replacements. I'd say that as an individual you'd have limited success getting a warranty replacement directly from the supplier (although I may be wrong on this), but would expect something from a major brand.

The other side of it is that the less scrupulous Chinese suppliers may well be tempted to stream anything that fails or is borderline fail on quality into a different market than onto somebody like Planet X, or Trek or Spec or any other large company with big buying power they deal with.

For instance, if they were to receive a batch of 10,000 ball bearings that were just outside of a tolerance spec, what do you think they'd do with them ?

a) Return them and probably have to wait a month for the next delivery?
b) Assemble them into a wheel bearing and then sell it to their biggest customer or
c) Sell it to somebody who's never bought anything from them before and may never buy again ?

The most likely outcome is probably c) and maybe b) if they thought that they could get away with it.

I'm not saying this because I think that Chinese manufacturing quality sucks and I'm certainly not saying that all of their products are shoddy, but they really are 20 years behind in terms of manufacturing culture. Think of the difference between Japanese and British car manufacturers in the '80's and you won't be far wrong.

Again, as I said before, my opinions are based on >25 years in manufacturing, working with some of the best known companies in the world and daily experience over the past couple of years dealing with Chinese manufacturing companies.

To sum up my opinion, I'd say that you're more likely to have a quality problem with a Chinese manufactured item than a European or USA made item but if you buy it from a major brand supplier you are at least reasonably protected if it fails, but will pay some form of premium for this.

Indeed. I had problems with some Chinese hubs bought on eBay and never got a penny in return. Never had a problem when hubs were bought from larger Taiwanese retailers... Some products are borderline faulty and get flogged on the eBay market, where people are quick to give a positive feed back before the item proves faulty...

daveplanetx

Interesting thread .

Just to be clear our carbon wheels are not made in China but Taiwan . The rims are made by gigantex , who make the rims for mavic , Bontrager and are generally regarded as the best carbon rim factory in the Far East . Our rims are made to the same specs as Mavic and Bontrager etc.

We have our own wheel building operation , controlled by ourselves , and our agent Rick / Speedhigh who has 30 years of experience importing and exporting bicycle products and knows how to build a good wheel . Our position at the front of the carbon wheel market is quite hard earned , I understand from last years numbers we are now within reach of surpassing mavic in terms of qty sold .

We would never buy carbon wheels from China and just "put our stickers on"

Our prices are very low because we have massive volume and we buy and sell direct , they are particularly low at the moment because we are overstocked due to a late out of season delivery .

Be very careful ordering from China , and avoid carbon clinchers with carbon braking surface completely , from our experience only Zipp carbon clinchers are really up to the job .

iPete

Excellent post Dave :!:

Should really take advantage of the over stocking but don't even have a roadie at the mo. Please can you sell some no logo clincher rims so I can do a fixed wheel build

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

Excellent post Dave :!:

Should really take advantage of the over stocking but don't even have a roadie at the mo. Please can you sell some no logo clincher rims so I can do a fixed wheel build

There are some fairly good clincher carbon rims at Tokio fixed Gear, the Broby ones... had a chat with Max Broby, the designer... even half price they are still 175 pounds each though... :shock:

iPete

ugo.santalucia wrote:

iPete wrote:

Excellent post Dave :!:

Should really take advantage of the over stocking but don't even have a roadie at the mo. Please can you sell some no logo clincher rims so I can do a fixed wheel build

There are some fairly good clincher carbon rims at Tokio fixed Gear, the Broby ones... had a chat with Max Broby, the designer... even half price they are still 175 pounds each though... :shock:

I know :shock: was emailing you about them a few months ago I'd just imagine a planetx set would (probably) come in cheaper, lighter and I'd have a better idea where they came from.

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

iPete wrote:

Excellent post Dave :!:

Should really take advantage of the over stocking but don't even have a roadie at the mo. Please can you sell some no logo clincher rims so I can do a fixed wheel build

There are some fairly good clincher carbon rims at Tokio fixed Gear, the Broby ones... had a chat with Max Broby, the designer... even half price they are still 175 pounds each though... :shock:

I know :shock: was emailing you about them a few months ago I'd just imagine a planetx set would (probably) come in cheaper, lighter and I'd have a better idea where they came from.

Not sure... if they sell the tubulars at 100 pounds discounted, they would probably sell the clinchers at 150-200... they cost more, fact!