Failed headset after 5 months!
Comments
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I agree as well.
I have bikes with many thousands of miles on them and never a headset failure. To blame such a thing on riding in the rain, as though this would be a natural outcome, is utterly lame. If the design of this headset is such that it cannot reasonably used in inclement weather without having to be overhauled afterwards than it s unfit for purpose, or should at least come with a warning that it s a fair weather piece of kit only.0 -
bernithebiker wrote:For me this is very simple.
No WAY, should the headset fail so quickly, rain or no rain.
I've had 6 bikes over 20 years, never ONE headset failure.
This is an expensive, top end bike bought from a dealer, not a Chinese rip off from the internet.
The customer should get decent service, end of. Pinarello should be mortified that their bikes are doing this, and take all measures possible to sort it quickly.
If you bought a new car and the wheel bearing went after 3 months, what would you do? Stump up the cash yourself for a new bearing? No way!
Yes, but it is difficult to judge. Some people have no care whatsoever for their bicycle and a carbon racing bicycle is not designed to be taken around muddy roads... so it is down to the LBS to assess if the damage is due to poor fitting or poor usage.
The same car comparison applies... if you buy a Ferrari and drive it off road, I very much doubt you'll get new suspensions when yours fail.
Personally I think full on race bikes should come with this kind of warning, but of course this would put customers off... which is the only industry's fault in this scenarioleft the forum March 20230 -
But noones talking about taking it off road, even the LBS has said 'this is due to being used in the rain'. And it seems Pinarellos are prone to this failure which is totally inexcusable for a brand of their supposed calibre.
Some of the roads we ride in the winter are wet, slimy, with crap from tractors etc. all over them. But this is normal for anyone road riding in NW Europe in the winter.0 -
bernithebiker wrote:Some of the roads we ride in the winter are wet, slimy, with crap from tractors etc. all over them. But this is normal for anyone road riding in NW Europe in the winter.
And finally you are getting to the point... these frames are designed to be ridden on nice roads, otherwise they would have mudguard eyelets, conventional headsets, seals and all things... but they don't... so the responsible retailer should enquire on which is the intended use and advise accordingly.
Unfortualtely, since we have started buying online and we think we know everything, even shops have to sell you what you want, or you'll buy it elsewhere... we have a lot more choice, but we are not any wiser.
Bicycles which are fit to ride for years in Majorca, might only last a winter or two over hereleft the forum March 20230 -
Even so, five months and 700 miles for a headset? You'd expect double that, even in lousy weather for a chain. And a chain is a consumable...0
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Yes, but it is difficult to judge. Some people have no care whatsoever for their bicycle and a carbon racing bicycle is not designed to be taken around muddy roads... so it is down to the LBS to assess if the damage is due to poor fitting or poor usage.
In my opinion it is down to the manufacturer (Pinarello) to ensure that it's appointed dealer (LBS) is adequately trained to make this difficult assessment prior to awarding the franchise.
Any doubts and they should side with the customer given the length of time involved."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
bernithebiker wrote:
Paris Roubaix is a one off and most of the equipment used in that race is then ditched or heavily servicedleft the forum March 20230 -
Charlie Potatoes wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Yes, but it is difficult to judge. Some people have no care whatsoever for their bicycle and a carbon racing bicycle is not designed to be taken around muddy roads... so it is down to the LBS to assess if the damage is due to poor fitting or poor usage.
In my opinion it is down to the manufacturer (Pinarello) to ensure that it's appointed dealer (LBS) is adequately trained to make this difficult assessment prior to awarding the franchise.
Any doubts and they should side with the customer given the length of time involved.
PInarello sell the frames to the UK distributor and what happens next is in the hands of the latter... who then sell the frames to whoever want to sell them to the public and can buy enough of them. It's business and it's down to numbers. If I want to sell Pinarello frames and place an order for 100 of them cash in hand, you can be sure no other questions will be askedleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:PInarello sell the frames to the UK distributor and what happens next is in the hands of the latter... who then sell the frames to whoever want to sell them to the public and can buy enough of them. It's business and it's down to numbers. If I want to sell Pinarello frames and place an order for 100 of them cash in hand, you can be sure no other questions will be asked
Knowing that really devalues the name Pinarello for me."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Charlie Potatoes wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:PInarello sell the frames to the UK distributor and what happens next is in the hands of the latter... who then sell the frames to whoever want to sell them to the public and can buy enough of them. It's business and it's down to numbers. If I want to sell Pinarello frames and place an order for 100 of them cash in hand, you can be sure no other questions will be asked
Knowing that really devalues the name Pinarello for me.
What were you expecting? They are a major manufacturer these days... long gone are the days of the workshop in Treviso and the direct sale from the frame builder to the public... the name doesn't mean anything any longer. They sponsor team Sky as they know the UK is a growing market and they can flog a lot of theseleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:What were you expecting? They are a major manufacturer these days... long gone are the days of the workshop in Treviso and the direct sale from the frame builder to the public... the name doesn't mean anything any longer. They sponsor team Sky as they know the UK is a growing market and they can flog a lot of these
Yes perhaps I am being a little naive
But they have set themselves up as top of the range/high end/ numero uno/ choice of champions/very expensive and as such I would expect better."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:bernithebiker wrote:
Paris Roubaix is a one off and most of the equipment used in that race is then ditched or heavily serviced
Would you like me to post some photos of super wet Tour de France days too?
(Some of those col roads are pretty crap too)
Saying your Pinarello can't go out in the rain is ridiculous. A bit like saying don't go above 50km/h or do any hills >10% on it.0 -
Berni, I think the point is that a lot of pros ride bikes with certain components that are not suited for everyday riding. I recall Wiggo having a TT bike with open bearings to reduce drag to an absolute minimum...but the bike mech conceded that it was a highly impractical choice for anything other than one off TTs, after which the bike is completely stripped and rebuilt by an expert. As we all seem to be rushing towards high end race machines so we must concede that some things will be built for speed and not optimised for riding down muddy backroads...again and again without any real TLC in between. Don't get me wrong, I still think a headset 'wearing' out after 700 miles is absolute rubbish...but I think it is time for Nitr8 to move on, stump up the cash for decent bearings and then ride his bike in the winter rain. Life's too short for carrying too much baggage (and any case, there are no panniers on my race bikes
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bernithebiker wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:bernithebiker wrote:
Paris Roubaix is a one off and most of the equipment used in that race is then ditched or heavily serviced
Would you like me to post some photos of super wet Tour de France days too?
(Some of those col roads are pretty crap too)
Saying your Pinarello can't go out in the rain is ridiculous. A bit like saying don't go above 50km/h or do any hills >10% on it.
The point is this - after a wet stage the mechanics will strip out, clean and re-grease the headsets. This isn't even a new concept; I was a pro-team mechanic in the 70's, and after a wet race we'd typically fit new headsets and probably brackets as well (luckily we were an official team of the groupset manufacturer, and so just handed in used stuff in exchange for new). Headsets would routinely be changed every month or so otherwise.
As some of us have said; it's horses for courses. It isn't just Pinarello headsets that wear when exposed to water and are not appropriately serviced, other makes do as well. My friend works in a shop that mostly handles fairly expensive race bikes. Almost every bike that shows signs of not being properly cleaned and serviced after wet rides that he has in for work will need new headset bearings and very often new bracket bearings (especially the external type).
To be fair, the manufacturers could use bearings with more seals, but these create more drag, and for pro riders who frequently ride no-handed at feeds and to put on/take off capes etc the preference is for free movement.
If the current typical cycling customer is now one who demands warranties and compensation at every turn, then maybe manufacturers will have to sell more robust, heavier and less responsive bikes, and produce "special" equipment for the pros and those with racing licences?0 -
Well my Trek 5900's headset lasted from 2002 to 2011 (9 years) in all sorts of weathers, and I think I probably greased the bearings once , maybe twice.
I have 2 MTB's with Chris Kings, one is 14 years old, still utterly perfect (but I accept these are not integrated).
My current Spesh SL4 Sworks is now just over 1 year old, and it's headset is fine. If it had failed within 1 year, I would be demanding a replacement from Spesh, no doubt about that.
I cannot accept the argument that today's road bike headsets are so high performance that they cannot keep water out. It is quite possible to have a free moving steerer and not let water in.
Surely it is down to the quality of the bearings and the design of the whole ensemble. Seems Pinarello hasn't got it right.......?0 -
bernithebiker wrote:Well my Trek 5900's headset lasted from 2002 to 2011 (9 years) in all sorts of weathers, and I think I probably greased the bearings once , maybe twice.
I have 2 MTB's with Chris Kings, one is 14 years old, still utterly perfect (but I accept these are not integrated).
My current Spesh SL4 Sworks is now just over 1 year old, and it's headset is fine. If it had failed within 1 year, I would be demanding a replacement from Spesh, no doubt about that.
I cannot accept the argument that today's road bike headsets are so high performance that they cannot keep water out. It is quite possible to have a free moving steerer and not let water in.
Surely it is down to the quality of the bearings and the design of the whole ensemble. Seems Pinarello hasn't got it right.......?
As you seem to be a hard core fighter when it comes to dealing with retailers, what would you do then? The retailer said no, would you threaten them, call a lawyer, write to the ombudsman, write to Consumer Advice or other Regulator, complain with the distributor or write a letter to Mr Pinarello himself?left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:bernithebiker wrote:Well my Trek 5900's headset lasted from 2002 to 2011 (9 years) in all sorts of weathers, and I think I probably greased the bearings once , maybe twice.
I have 2 MTB's with Chris Kings, one is 14 years old, still utterly perfect (but I accept these are not integrated).
My current Spesh SL4 Sworks is now just over 1 year old, and it's headset is fine. If it had failed within 1 year, I would be demanding a replacement from Spesh, no doubt about that.
I cannot accept the argument that today's road bike headsets are so high performance that they cannot keep water out. It is quite possible to have a free moving steerer and not let water in.
Surely it is down to the quality of the bearings and the design of the whole ensemble. Seems Pinarello hasn't got it right.......?
As you seem to be a hard core fighter when it comes to dealing with retailers, what would you do then? The retailer said no, would you threaten them, call a lawyer, write to the ombudsman, write to Consumer Advice or other Regulator, complain with the distributor or write a letter to Mr Pinarello himself?
Hard core fighter? More sticking up for myself.
I would write the LBS a letter, copy to Pinarello UK and/or Italy, stating that a safety critical component has failed in an unusually short period of time, whilst used in standard UK road conditions. Having paid a premium price for a premium product, I am very disappointed in this component failure and would expect Pinarello to quickly resolve the issue at their cost.
This type of thing usually gets results, but if not either a) small claims court, or b) sell bike for best price possible, accept loss and move on to a decent manufacturer, making note never to touch Pinarellos ever again.
Also, it would seem that different (better?) bearings resolve the issue (see page 3) so why are Pina not using these?
When I bought my SL4 frameset, I could have had something really quite similar from China for about £500. Had I gone Chinese, and had this h/set problem, well, my bad luck, it's a risk I took to save £1500.
BUT, if I had it with my SL4, I would deem it fair enough to expect a fast, professional solution and an apology.0 -
I don't think I would be chasing up a retailer after 6 months even for a component that should last longer. It is just the way things are made these days as part of a consumer economy. We could get perfect bearings with lifetime warranties but we would have to pay accordingly, and you can but it definitely costs. I can understand the OP being irritated but best to replace and move on, this won't be the last item on your bike that will require replacement/upgrade.
If the kind of warranties you are looking for we're introduced across the board this would be an even more expensive sport than it is currently, and it is plenty expensive enough already.0 -
nathancom wrote:I don't think I would be chasing up a retailer after 6 months even for a component that should last longer. It is just the way things are made these days as part of a consumer economy. We could get perfect bearings with lifetime warranties but we would have to pay accordingly, and you can but it definitely costs. I can understand the OP being irritated but best to replace and move on, this won't be the last item on your bike that will require replacement/upgrade.
If the kind of warranties you are looking for we're introduced across the board this would be an even more expensive sport than it is currently, and it is plenty expensive enough already.
If you are prepared to accept this kind of thing, then it will only get worse.....oh your carbon frame has cracked? Well, that's to be expected these days.......
And don't you already pay a premium for Pinarello products? Surely they can afford another fiver for better bearings?0 -
Agreed.bernithebiker wrote:nathancom wrote:I don't think I would be chasing up a retailer after 6 months even for a component that should last longer. It is just the way things are made these days as part of a consumer economy. We could get perfect bearings with lifetime warranties but we would have to pay accordingly, and you can but it definitely costs. I can understand the OP being irritated but best to replace and move on, this won't be the last item on your bike that will require replacement/upgrade.
If the kind of warranties you are looking for we're introduced across the board this would be an even more expensive sport than it is currently, and it is plenty expensive enough already.
If you are prepared to accept this kind of thing, then it will only get worse.....oh your carbon frame has cracked? Well, that's to be expected these days.......
And don't you already pay a premium for Pinarello products? Surely they can afford another fiver for better bearings?0 -
Hoopdriver wrote:
Agreed.bernithebiker wrote:nathancom wrote:I don't think I would be chasing up a retailer after 6 months even for a component that should last longer. It is just the way things are made these days as part of a consumer economy. We could get perfect bearings with lifetime warranties but we would have to pay accordingly, and you can but it definitely costs. I can understand the OP being irritated but best to replace and move on, this won't be the last item on your bike that will require replacement/upgrade.
If the kind of warranties you are looking for we're introduced across the board this would be an even more expensive sport than it is currently, and it is plenty expensive enough already.
If you are prepared to accept this kind of thing, then it will only get worse.....oh your carbon frame has cracked? Well, that's to be expected these days.......
And don't you already pay a premium for Pinarello products? Surely they can afford another fiver for better bearings?
Me too
"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
In my experience all default integrated headsets are very mediocre, require a lot of attention and live a short life. I had a Specialized Allez and changed the headset after just over one year, cant remember the model, possibly the usual cane creek basic junk. Virtually everyone on carbon bikes in my former club had various forms of rattling noises coming from the steering column and headsets needed constant adjustments with those ridiculous self anchoring top bungs (never seen a more stupid device). I doubt it is just a Pinarello issue. Pretty much every bike I have serviced over the past couple of years had brown rusty liquid leaching from the bottom cartridge. I am very surprised when people claim they had the same integrated headset for 10 years (have they been around that long?) as this is not what I normally see.left the forum March 20230
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The silly thing is that these bearings, in theory could (should?) be lasting LONGER than before as they are much bigger than they used to be, as the headtubes are far bigger than they were. I know the SL4 has a very big lower bearing, can't remember the size. And compared to a pedal or a BB bearing, the headset has a fairly easy time of it, as long as you can keep the water out......
Anyway, I've missed my Sunday ride, because it's very wet and windy outside, and you've got me worried about my headset! So maybe I'll whip the fork out and see what they look like......!0 -
bernithebiker wrote:The silly thing is that these bearings, in theory could (should?) be lasting LONGER than before as they are much bigger than they used to be, as the headtubes are far bigger than they were. I know the SL4 has a very big lower bearing, can't remember the size. And compared to a pedal or a BB bearing, the headset has a fairly easy time of it, as long as you can keep the water out......
Anyway, I've missed my Sunday ride, because it's very wet and windy outside, and you've got me worried about my headset! So maybe I'll whip the fork out and see what they look like......!
Awaiting a reply like this "took the bearings out and popped the seal off and to my suprise there was very little grease in there, I can see with a little wet weather this bearing wont last long"
Next realises my advice 3 pages ago about slapping more grease in the bearings is the cure to this pathetic thread.
and to those saying you dont take road bikes off road to get dirty, thats fair enough, but are you telling me when it rains or is damp you only have to wipe water off your bike and drivetrain? I think not.MADONE 5.20 -
bernithebiker wrote:nathancom wrote:I don't think I would be chasing up a retailer after 6 months even for a component that should last longer. It is just the way things are made these days as part of a consumer economy. We could get perfect bearings with lifetime warranties but we would have to pay accordingly, and you can but it definitely costs. I can understand the OP being irritated but best to replace and move on, this won't be the last item on your bike that will require replacement/upgrade.
If the kind of warranties you are looking for we're introduced across the board this would be an even more expensive sport than it is currently, and it is plenty expensive enough already.
If you are prepared to accept this kind of thing, then it will only get worse.....oh your carbon frame has cracked? Well, that's to be expected these days.......
And don't you already pay a premium for Pinarello products? Surely they can afford another fiver for better bearings?
I think there is a bit of a difference between a headset failing from lack of grease which can be remedied once with more grease, and a carbon frame cracking.
At the end of the day, I feel part of the fault lies with the consumer as well. We are at a place in consumer buying where the consumer is always "right". It's pretty sad when people waste so much time flopping around on forums rather than fixing the problem which would take 5 minutes to fix and costs very little to remedy.
If people buy something that is known to have a specific design fault, stop running to the supplier when something happens, especially if the wealth of knowledge suggests just putting more grease in to solve the problem. Humans are so lazy today.0 -
OK, here are photos of my SL4's headset bearings; just got back from a 2 hour wet ride, no attempt to clean bike yet.
Strava says I'm doing 10 000km per year, this is in all weathers, including a very wet and dirty Etape du Tour 2, (200km).
The bike is 14 months old and I have never touched the headset since I put it all together.
The photos show alot of dirt around the top of the fork, but this is to be expected. The bearing and the steerer are clean and have limited amounts of grease around them.
The only sign of wear is a bit of minor surface rust on the outside of the bearing. Bearings spin nice and smooth.
Top bearing perfect, looks like it did when I put it in.
So overall, pretty much what I expected to find - all in perfect working order, but would benefit from a quick clean and fresh grease in the lower race.
So after more than 10k km, of which I would say 2000km+ in the wet, my headset is still fine. Why then has the Pinarello one failed after 3 months? Poor bearings? Poor sealing? Pour assembly (lack of grease?) Who knows, but I still maintain that it is a disappointing result from a premium brand.
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And here's the lower bearing after a quick wipe down.
Looking pretty good, just add some grease and good for another 10 000km+
Will I be pulling out the fork for a regrease after every wet ride? Er, no.
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sloppy maintainence, loose headset who knows :roll:MADONE 5.20
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bernithebiker wrote:And here's the lower bearing after a quick wipe down.
Looking pretty good, just add some grease and good for another 10 000km+
Will I be pulling out the fork for a regrease after every wet ride? Er, no.
All is good for you then... One has to notice that you are quite diligent with your TLC. I can tell from a few details that you do clean your bike fairly regularly...There was no sign of oxide deposits on your brake bolt hole, for instance and no paint bubbling around the same area, which is very common in badly kept bikes. I have seen bikes only a few months old looking like they had seen many wintersleft the forum March 20230
