Which frame next? And Dogma help please?

ollie cb

Hi everyone,

I'm going to be selling my Cervelo R3 2010 soon and possibly also my De Rosa Protos.

This gives me a few pennies to spend on a new bike. Components is something that need not be discussed so I would like some thoughts from people who have ridden various different frames...

Firstly, are there (m)any discernable differences between the Dogma and Dogma 2? I also understand that the Dogma 65.1 is out soon.

Secondly, Cervelo. I love my R3 albeit if i haven't ridden it for a while (too small now). I'd welcome feedback on how a 2012 R3 or R5 rides in comparison to the 2010 model?

In an ideal world, I would by the new De Rosa Protos but these are 12k on Wiggle so the frameset is probably in the region of 5-6k (!).

Now some info about me and my riding style / what the bike will be used for. As we all know, you can't give me any advice without knowing what kind of riding I do

This bike will not simply be reserved for nice weather. I take my De Rosa out in all weathers. It does amuse me when i see bikes for sale claiming to have never been out in the wet. Some of the most enjoyable and challenging rides are when it's wet.
I live in the Surrey hills; if you're not familiar, this means plenty of chalk and flint and general crap washed into the road in the lightest of showers. I say this as I'd be interested to know if any frames are slightly too fragile for this (the Cervelo R5 looks rather wispy and on the really light cannondales, you can squeeze the dowtube and make it move).

My rides usually take in a lot of climbs so a responsive, light (but not so light as to compromise structural integrity) is required. Comfort isn't a real issue for me. The Protos is pretty damn stiff but i enjoy any ride on it.

I'm sure there are plenty of manufacturers or frames i have not discussed here - I have spoken about those I am most familiar with. I have read very good things from owners on here and elsewhere of Canyon's bikes. Has anyone ridden one as well as, say, an R3?

Thanks in advance.

smidsy

Read this

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290, ... 70,00.html

A host of changes on the Dogma 2 including stiffer, more aero, lighter and new fork and head tube.

Mccaria

Ollie,

The Dogma has been steadily getting lighter with each iteration, but it is still on the heavier side of the top end carbon frames. I have the first edition of the carbon Dogma. It is a fun, bling looking bike, certainly stiff enough for me but it would not be my first choice for a day of riding in the hills.

The Canyon SLX and the Cervelo R5 are both much lighter frames and to me they look to be set up quite similarly with wispy rear stays, big down tube and slim front forks. Still building up the Cervelo so don't have any ride time, but the Canyon which is also a light frame has proven to be robust enough for my 13st around the Surrey and Kent hills, and also the Alps, the Pyrenees and the Dolomites. I think for the money the Canyon SLX is a heck of a frame, although with 50% off the R5 is a more realistic price comparison !

Geometry and bike fit are obviously going to be important. the Dogma 57.5 comes in with a 18.4 cm head tube and a 57.5 cm top tube and has the more aggressive front end fit of the three. The R5 in a 58 has a 19.9cm HT on a 58 TT and the Canyon is a 60 cm with a 19.0 HT (but then with the taller I-lock headset) and a 57.5 TT.

Also need to think which bottom bracket system works best for you, or to what degree you are prepared to comrpomise with adaptors. Having messed around with several systems, I am still a big fan of the traditional threaded bottom bracket on the basis it is the simplest and it creaks less than any other system.

ollie cb

Thank you for the input gents.

Interesting you raise the issue of bottom bracket systems. This hadn't really crossed my mind as I've always had a standard threaded BB (my cervelo was the year before BBright).
My preferred chainset is rotor 3d+ which should alleviate any potential issues on an R5.

I've also been coming to the same conclusion re the Dogma and hills. Pinarello frames in general look rather substantial and i can imagine they're fantastic on the flat but don't strike me as first choice for climbing - i do love the fact i can chuck the de rosa around.

Geometry is an issue i would probably get few eyes rolled at. I have never had a bike fit and to be honest, have never taken geometry into account. As im used to my Protos, i feel like it fits like a glove. I hope this isn't hard to understand but i hate the idea of being measured up and then being told my frame is completely out.
(i should probably overcome this before forking out on a frame i hear you all say).

Very pleased to hear that your Canyon SLX has been up to the job. Also, with a lifetime warranty (R5, not sure about Canyon but will research), that is always good if the unthinkable happens.

In summary, many thanks for your help so far and I will be looking at the SLX in a lot more detail.

racingcondor

For a bit of a change of direction from just looking at light carbon I'd be looking at a custom lugged Seven if I had that sort of money for a frame (look at Baum as well if you want something lovely). In the flesh they look absolutely stunning and they weigh in pretty close to the Dogma.

If you're looking for lighter though I'd probably add the Scott Foil to the list. Scott have one specced at 6.5kg on their website and the tube shapes aren't far from the Protos.

Mccaria

By the way Ollie,

I am based in Surrey - if you ever want to drop by and have a look at the bikes side by side, send me a pm and I am sure we can arrange something.

Rgds

ollie cb

That is very true re the lines of the Foil. And look at the price:
http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/frames ... 12-p197477

Why on earth is the De Rosa 5x that?!

And your other two suggestions. I had never heard of Seven but have spent the past half hour on their website. Unfortunately, they don't really appeal. Baum on the other hand, now you're talking.

I can't believe i missed it out of my original post.... Look 695.
This thing looks fantastic in my opinion but then again, it looks damn chunky. Anyone got experience of it on climbs?

Mccaria, that is a very kind offer. Thank you. I'm in Leicester (uni) until xmas but I doubt I will have made my mind up by then. Hopefully my R3 will be gone though and I will have stripped the De Rosa. So i will remember your kind offer and perhaps take you up on it at xmas. You have the Dogma and R5 and do you also have the CLX?

Thanks again.

meesterbond

To get my bias out the way first, I ride an R5 and love it... mainly because Cervelo's geometry really seems to work for me without resorting to long stems or loads of spacers. I know they look fragile (particularly the seat stays, but they certainly don't feel it.

Anyway, that out the way, if I was spending Dogma money on a new frame (what are they, £3.5k+), then I'd probably start looking at something like Parlee. Colnago would probably be next on the list... Maybe even an R5ca if I could find one on special. I also love Time bikes - not often seen but look fabulous. However, I'm not sure whether they've got any distribution in the UK anymore.

il_principe

I've owned a Dogma2 since May. I live in London and cycle in the Kent, Sussex & Surrey lanes regularly. The bike has also travelled with me to Cyprus and the Pyrenees where it performed perfectly. I don't really get the weight objection to be honest. Yep they're heavier than some, but they are very well built. I have a 2008 Prince which is still good as new. I got down to 69KG for the Pyrenean trip and that certainly made a difference on the climbs, far more than having a 300g lighter frame would!

I don't race or anything, am just a keen amateur and managed to get from Luz to the top of the Tourmalet in 1:20... am very happy climbing on it.

There's a fairly poor pic of the Dogma in my sig. It's a brilliant bike, comfortable, stable and quick. Can't recommend highly enough. I'm yet to see another Dogma2 on the road (which is a surprise), but I see Cervelo's everywhere

Really is worth getting fitted though!

ollie cb

I'm with you on the weight of the rider over the frame. I'm 63kg (and 6ft 2... yes i resemble a lamp post) so at least i can't get stick or "lose weight rather than looking for the lightest frame". I suppose the thing that has got me thinking is the dogma just looks more chunky as does the Look 695.

Then again, during the course of this thread, I realise how highly i value a robust frame. It's great to hear from you Il Principe as you ride the same roads as me. So does the Dogma perform really well in Surrey, Sussex etc when the roads and conditions are crap?

Thanks for your reply.

il_principe

ollie cb wrote:

I'm with you on the weight of the rider over the frame. I'm 63kg (and 6ft 2... yes i resemble a lamp post) so at least i can't get stick or "lose weight rather than looking for the lightest frame". I suppose the thing that has got me thinking is the dogma just looks more chunky as does the Look 695.

Then again, during the course of this thread, I realise how highly i value a robust frame. It's great to hear from you Il Principe as you ride the same roads as me. So does the Dogma perform really well in Surrey, Sussex etc when the roads and conditions are crap?

Thanks for your reply.

It handles crappy surface pretty well (definitely better than the Prince does). I've ridden about 7 centuries on it this year and have been perfectly comfy. That said, it won't be ridden over the winter, that's now the Prince's job.

The looks aren't everyones cup of tea, but I'm a fan. The BoB paintjob looks brilliant in the flesh as well, it seems impossible to photograph properly though.

ollie cb

I knew i'd forgotten something from that post.... I looked at the photo and it looks absolutely fantastic. I love the BoB paint. I'm used to the PITA matte black to keep clean.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience.

spasypaddy

Look 695.

Dont get one.

ollie cb

Intriguing bearing in mind you own one... Please tell me more?

il_principe

ollie cb wrote:

Intriguing bearing in mind you own one... Please tell me more?

Ha, he loves it, just doesn't want other people riding round on them.

ollie cb

That's the great thing about my bike. I can say how much I love it with no chance of anybody getting one. Until i put mine up for sale that is

Mccaria

Ollie,

Yep. Have the Dogma, R5 VWD and the Canyon SLX. By Xmas the R5 should also be built up. I am also 6'2 (but not as svelte) so frame sizing could also be interesting for you. Let me know when you are down and happy to do a side by side comparison.

Rgds

ollie cb

Fantastic. What were the chances of you having the three I'm contemplating?! I appreciate the R5 isn't built up yet but between the other two, do you find yourself choosing the Dogma when the weather is against you?
You can see what is on my mind... I don't want to have a bike that I'll be concerned about going out in any conditions but will still be riding something nice.
This is where your kind offer of letting me see them side by side is excellent as I'll be able to judge for myself whether I''d be happy bombing down Coldharbour lane in the middle of winter!

Thanks.

Mccaria

There are others !

If the weather is bad I tend to focus more on changing the wheels rather than the frame. I have some 32 spoke handbuilts with Gatorskins that go on for the bad weather and would have no problem riding the Canyon or the Dogma in such conditions. The Canyon is currently in the bike room covered in mud after a ride on the Surrey roads last Sunday.

I think of bad weather as being more a test of wheels and tyres than frames. My test for a frame is whether I would be comfortable going downhill at 40+ mph. If I am not prepared or nervous to do that on a frame, then it's not for me.

ollie cb

I just leave my 3's on whatever the weather

Glad to hear you're like me with respect to frame and weather. I am surprised when people advertise bikes for sale that have never been out in the rain... I love the rain!

Ps: lucky sod for having a bike room. I have mine in my bedroom at uni only space for one here too.

huuregeil

Have you considered a Ridley Helium? I have the original version and it's simply a great bike; the new Helium SL for next year looks stunning. Ticks all of your boxes, particularly since you mention e.g. toughness, lightness/responsiveness. It's light, super stiff, ride quality is excellent particularly on rough roads (tested in belgium ;-) ), downhill it's the best bike I've ridden (I've had a couple of Looks over the years too, which aren't bad downhill either!), handling is confidence inspiring zero-drama, paintwork is excellent, and toughness, well, this was the bike that Johnny Hoogerland crashed in the tdf last year (http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/ ... ium_185673, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYPDAry-A-s - interestingly, the other bike was a dogma - both finished the stage!). Have also ridden a Damocles, which is a beast of a bike, but a bit too stiff for me.

spasypaddy

Il Principe wrote:

ollie cb wrote:

Intriguing bearing in mind you own one... Please tell me more?

Ha, he loves it, just doesn't want other people riding round on them.

got it in one

i actually considered a De Rosa when i bought my Look. They are stunning bikes. But im glad i for my Look.

oh and if you drop me an email at spasypaddy@gmail.com i'll attempt to dig out my spreadsheet with loads of high end frames on it that i compiled.

Neale1978

You can still have a de rosa as they do more than just the protos (king rs etc). The protos is an amazing looking thing but my god its overpriced. I have an r838 in 51cm (compact, sloping tt style) and am 6ft 2" also and its perfect size wise. It dident win awards for nothing and its lighter and stiffer than the ribble that people say is the same frame

ollie cb

Paddy, thanks for that. I'll email you right now.

Neale, I simply meant an original Protos. Of course you can get a De Rosa Glad to hear you enjoy your r838. They look fantastic. I do have a soft spot for De Rosas...

Huuregeil, I just had a look at the Ridley. Certainly must be robust after Hoogerland's little meeting with the car and fence. I'll look at the 2013 frameset too.

cooper.michael1

You don't say why you are looking to change, other than one of the frames is slightly too small. It seems to me that you've got two top end frames which you are going to sell to buy another top end frame. What do the frames you currently have miss that you are looking for in your next bike?

I had a Dogma a few years back, but my current (much less flash) Planet X is a better bike for me because the geometry fits my riding style much better. I'm quicker a much more comfortable on a bike which cost half as much.

ollie cb

I am looking for a change for a few reasons.

Firstly, because I can. (wow that sounds arrogant). I mean this in the sense am a student and cannot afford a nice car. But i can afford a very nice bike, so why not experience what the market has to offer? Yes the de rosa is a fantastic frame but if any frame was perfect, they wouldn't bother developing new ones (broadly speaking.. i am aware that new frames = new customers, increased and continued sales blah blah). But i think you get the picture.

Secondly, fit. This thread and my own previous ignorance has made me realise that i should be fitted correctly. I highly doubt the de rosa is near my perfect fit thus another reason to move it on.

There are other reasons but read on....

I imagine if many people really sat down and questioned why they need a new frame, they wouldn't buy one.

I expect to be asked why i'm looking to change frames by my mum or girlfriend not on here (tongue in cheek )
I'm sure there must be something in the RULES that states a fellow cyclist must never question WHY any purchase of ANY part is necessary
Otherwise we'd all have one pair of hand built 32 spoke wheels, chorus 11 speed rather than super record 11 speed, mechanical shimano rather than Di2. But where's the fun in that?!

cooper.michael1

Buying things because you can is exactly what the marketing men want everyone to do. I'm not saying it is necessarily a bad thing just to have a change but the reality is spending £000s does not make you a dramatically better/quicker cyclist.

I suppose the difference between us, is that I'd rather have a top quality set of 32 spoke wheels and a mechanical groupset...In the real world with potholes, traffic lights. diesel on the road etc.. they are just as quick and a hell of a lot more reliable.

Do you not look at a lot of this 'technology' and think, it is just a means of pushing consumers to buy more? Buy some Open Pro's...you know you want to 8)

ollie cb

We're singing from the same hymn sheet!

Hey, the economy is screwed enough as it is. Lets stop being sensible, ie discussing whether we need these things.

I know the thousands spend on a new frame won't make me faster. Such an easy example that gets overused but cars... Why bother having such a, lets face it, unnecessarily vast range? You're never going to be able to use a sports car on the road to its full potential but that doesn't stop me wanting one!
Same case with bikes... As a keen club cyclist, i will never use a top end frame to its full potential but it doesn't stop me wanting one

I get the picture... I'm a marketing departments' dream

Neale1978

Jesus. You need to simplify all this and come up with a frame to get yourself really (Not that difficult, Just do your research and it will happen) and then sell the frame/s you have to make it happen, Build the new bike and ride it

Task over with, All good, Sweet, Good times.. Bonza.. FIN