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Assault

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  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    @diy... fortunately these incidents seem to be rare. its interesting to find out how people react and what your options are if you happe to come across one of these idiots
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    They are indeed. its all about how you control your amygdala response. The basic mammalian brain cannot distinguish between a near miss accident and an attack, so it floods the body with all the instruments at its disposal leaving you filled with rage hormones. Couple that with the fact that the basic brain says if it didn't see it it didn't happen.

    All the necessary ingredients for an argument.
  • He should get done for a hit and run also.
  • steve6690steve6690 Posts: 190
    Is there any suggestion or evidence that you were deliberately knocked off the bike ? I ask because I dealt with something similar a few years ago. A motorist deliberately clipped another car that had cut him up on a roundabout. No injuries and very minor damage. He was charged with Dangerous Driving, convicted and sent to Crown Court for sentencing. 9 months immediate custody for a first time offender. The fact that it was a "road rage" incident brought it into the realms of immediate custody.
  • steve6690steve6690 Posts: 190
    diy wrote:
    I agree with your last paragraph.. Its likely that they are referring to the CPS to consider the most appropriate charges based on the evidence. With the rest of your post, I am completely familiar with the legislation and procedures. My point refers to the process pre-charging. Its at the point of arrest that these things are often agreed.

    The reality is that plod will often use their "discretion" rather than making an arrest. I'm generally in favour of that, but sometimes they go for this option because they don't understand the required level of evidence and sometimes its because its simply inconvenient to make an arrest.

    In my own case (bus driver assault) the police officer was not interested in making an arrest because "no harm" had been done since he landed his punch on my helmet. Her view was arresting him would have left a bus load of passengers stranded. I had a lengthy conversation with the inspector who contacted me after and her words where pretty much as I said. They recorded his name against the crime. So either the officer did not know the legal test for assault (unlawful violence), she incorrectly used her discretion or she missed the bit where he admitted punching me and/or the inspector was giving me BS. In reality I think in the officers mind, since I was not bruised or bleeding, there was no assault.

    Personally, I would have arrested the driver. Not just for the assault, but to prevent him driving any further with a bus load of passengers. Anyone who loses it like that needs some time cooling his heels before getting back out on the roads.
  • To me, knocking somebody off his bike with a car, is attempted murder.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 25,972 Lives Here
    Bloody hell! That's appalling. I got knocked off on Friday and am more than a little battered, but at least everybody was civil.
    Good luck and I hope the driver is fully prosecuted. As the policeman said in my case he didn't think there was anything to be gained by prosecution, but if she hadn't shown remorse he'd have thrown the book at her.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    steve6690 wrote:
    Personally, I would have arrested the driver. Not just for the assault, but to prevent him driving any further with a bus load of passengers. Anyone who loses it like that needs some time cooling his heels before getting back out on the roads.
    Tbh that was the important offence for me not the assault. As a former advanced motorcycle instructor this was the important point. You just can't be a bus driver if you turn into a rage monster every time someone gets in you way. It's like when you see bus drivers jumping red lights or doing crazy moves. They are putting Their job on the line, for what? Get to the next stop a bit quicker. I don't get it. If I was a bus driver it would be like driving miss daisy, nothing would bother me. You are paid to drive from a to b safely. Simple.
  • AndyPkrAndyPkr Posts: 20
    I really hope nothing like this ever happens to me. I would not be able to help myself from tracking the culprit down and dishing out my own justice in a way that they clearly appreciate. Eye for an eye. He should be jailed and banned from driving for life. Nothing less is justifiable.
  • Yes, certainly a deliberate act. Have joined British cycling and have requested legal advice. Unfortunately I won't be eligible for legal representation as I joined after the incident, only cost £12 so it was definately worth it. If your insurance doesn't cover you for 3rd party damage or legal cover i'd certainly consider it. My insurance does not cover me for legal support so I'm in limbo for now.
  • You could use a no win no fee law firm.

    I joined British Cycling 2 weeks ago for the insurance and legal help, just in case.....
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    If you have identified his insurance company then the NWNF law firms will take on the case and do everything for you. You can put your claim in their hands.

    its important to go to a specialist, not your local law firm who does wills house purchases and divorces.
  • hstileshstiles Posts: 414
    I would get some solid advice (i.e. not from the NWNF firm) about whether it is wise to launch a civil proceeding whilst criminal proceedings are pending.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    This isn't an instant process so seeking to engage the services of a solicitor for a private claim is futile while the criminal case is still underway. The OIC will have more than this investigation to complete and whilst he/she may have witness details, they may as yet not have obtained evidential statements from them yet. The prosecutor won't authorise charging until they have been able to review all the evidence. The police role is to investigate the incident impartially and therefore they have to collate evidence that may assist the suspect as well as the victim. He may have told a pack of lies in interview of how you cut him up and then kicked his car justifying his temporary and uncharacteristic loss of temper. If he did come out with something like that the OIC will have to revisit the scene, identify any CCTV and spend time trawling it just in case he's telling the truth. If they don't do that the case would get kicked out of court if the CPS were daft enough to authorise charge because his solicitor would successfully argue his potential accounti hadn't been investigated.

    Contact the OIC and ask why the suspect has been released on police bail. He or she is supposed to update you with every significant development of the case.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    Sorry but very bad advice, nobody is suggesting a private criminal prosecution. The criminal case is irrelevant to a civil damages claim. Let the police do their job, but there is a clear damages claim particularly if there is a witness who can confirm civil liability.

    The police may NFA (no further action) the lot due to lack of evidence of criminal offences, which would not impact a damages claim one bit. They are specifically and exclusively interested in criminal charges, they do not care about your claim for damages and personal injuries. Do not confuse compensation for criminal injuries with your ability to recover civil damages.

    NWNF - is simply mechanism for managing your risk of cost in the claim. You seek out a specialist Personal Injury firm. You get a free consultation and tell them all the facts including the criminal investigation. They make a decision as to if they will take you on, on a NWNF arrangement (they often insure that risk). This is entirely based on the risks of your claim. They pursue your claim either against the 3rd party insurance or they work with the MIB.

    People have accidents every day, sometimes they also get prosecuted for careless driving. Sometimes those cases fail. Their liability for the damages and injuries are not changed.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    An MG19 (compensation) claim for injury and property damages will be submitted with the file to the courts. As I understood the circs, the damage was caused by his actions after he got out of the vehicle? His motor insurance won't pay out for that and I doubt he has personal liability insurance.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • bails87bails87 Posts: 12,998
    philthy3 wrote:
    An MG19 (compensation) claim for injury and property damages will be submitted with the file to the courts. As I understood the circs, the damage was caused by his actions after he got out of the vehicle? His motor insurance won't pay out for that and I doubt he has personal liability insurance.
    You don't need insurance in order to give someone money...
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • hstileshstiles Posts: 414
    diy wrote:
    Sorry but very bad advice, nobody is suggesting a private criminal prosecution. The criminal case is irrelevant to a civil damages claim. Let the police do their job, but there is a clear damages claim particularly if there is a witness who can confirm civil liability.

    The police may NFA (no further action) the lot due to lack of evidence of criminal offences, which would not impact a damages claim one bit. They are specifically and exclusively interested in criminal charges, they do not care about your claim for damages and personal injuries. Do not confuse compensation for criminal injuries with your ability to recover civil damages.

    NWNF - is simply mechanism for managing your risk of cost in the claim. You seek out a specialist Personal Injury firm. You get a free consultation and tell them all the facts including the criminal investigation. They make a decision as to if they will take you on, on a NWNF arrangement (they often insure that risk). This is entirely based on the risks of your claim. They pursue your claim either against the 3rd party insurance or they work with the MIB.

    People have accidents every day, sometimes they also get prosecuted for careless driving. Sometimes those cases fail. Their liability for the damages and injuries are not changed.

    I'm not saying don;t launch civil proceedings, I am simply advising to get solid advice before launching a civil claim whilst a criminal case is pending.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    bails87 wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    An MG19 (compensation) claim for injury and property damages will be submitted with the file to the courts. As I understood the circs, the damage was caused by his actions after he got out of the vehicle? His motor insurance won't pay out for that and I doubt he has personal liability insurance.
    You don't need insurance in order to give someone money...

    You assume he has any of his own and chances are you'd end up pursuing him through the civil courts and having to seek the services of the bailiffs to seize property to the equivalent value, and then have to sell that.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    edited October 2012
    hstiles wrote:
    I'm not saying don;t launch civil proceedings, I am simply advising to get solid advice before launching a civil claim whilst a criminal case is pending.

    But you implied that a qualified lawyer working on a NWNF basis was unable to do this - which is bonkers.
    philthy3 wrote:
    An MG19 (compensation) claim for injury and property damages will be submitted with the file to the courts. As I understood the circs, the damage was caused by his actions after he got out of the vehicle? His motor insurance won't pay out for that and I doubt he has personal liability insurance.

    I think I get where you are coming from now. Do you really think GBH & DD will stick in this case? I can't see it. I think we have dangerous driving, assault and criminal damage. Which leaves the OP to pursue his claim for damages caused by the accident via the drivers insurers/mib.

    I read the description as OP was knocked off his bike and given a kicking while trapped in his pedals.
  • hstileshstiles Posts: 414
    diy wrote:
    But you implied that a qualified lawyer working on a NWNF basis was unable to do this - which is bonkers.

    I'd want advice from someone that wouldn't necessarily profit directly from a claim.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    diy wrote:
    hstiles wrote:
    I'm not saying don;t launch civil proceedings, I am simply advising to get solid advice before launching a civil claim whilst a criminal case is pending.

    But you implied that a qualified lawyer working on a NWNF basis was unable to do this - which is bonkers.
    philthy3 wrote:
    An MG19 (compensation) claim for injury and property damages will be submitted with the file to the courts. As I understood the circs, the damage was caused by his actions after he got out of the vehicle? His motor insurance won't pay out for that and I doubt he has personal liability insurance.

    I think I get where you are coming from now. Do you really think GBH & DD will stick in this case? I can't see it. I think we have dangerous driving, assault and criminal damage. Which leaves the OP to pursue his claim for damages caused by the accident via the drivers insurers/mib.

    I read the description as OP was knocked off his bike and given a kicking while trapped in his pedals.

    I don't know where GBH has come from? There is a common assault with the collision and the actions afterwards, criminal damage to the bike, and failing to report an RTC. GBH section 20 or 18 will require a breaking of a bone or all the layers of skin tissue. Common assault covers a magnitude of assaults even some you'd assume we're ABH. Provided the witnesses support the IP's account, I think they'll get home with the damage, s39 common assault, failing to report the RTC, failing to stop and potentially dangerous driving. The assault and criminal damage permit an award for compensation on conviction and enforceable by the court.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    Agreed, the criminal intent of the attack/accident with the car is therefore immaterial to the charges being considered and possible outcome. The only time it would matter is if the smack with the car left the OP with more serious injuries (and therefore a more serious crime for the cps to consider) than the kicking. This is why I think the OP can pursue a claim against the insurance company now and then let the criminal case take its course. The key difference is they will get compensation sooner this way.
  • Appreciate all the advice guys. Will be speaking with the police tomorrow. I'm really not fussed about speedy compensation at this point, that can wait. Axa Home Insurance have been great and an order has already gone through for a replacement bike with a hefty sum for accesories too. Can't reccomend them enough really and I'm glad I have joined british cycling now, for piece of mind more than anything. Recently read how a cyclist was hit by a car (BMW) and the wing mirror got ripeed off damaging the paintwork across two doors. The cyclist was injured but was ordered to pay damages to refurb the damaged car. Without third party cover that can cost thousands! £24 a year for me from now on is worth it.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    How the hell does that work; the cyclist is hit and then has to pay for the damage caused to the car when it impacted with him/her? Whoever they employed as a legal advisor wants a good shoeing.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,473
    There is always more to these cases than gets reported. The cyclist may well have been liable for the accident.

    Note to all cyclists: There is no obligation in Law to stop and give your details following an accident. There may of course be a moral one ;)
  • garethjohngarethjohn Posts: 165
    Well..........This actually made it all the way to the crown court, just like on the telly. He was eventually found guilty last week with sentencing later this month. Nearly laughed when i heard the defence, lol.
  • deswellerdesweller Posts: 5,175
    Come on, spill the beans! What was his defence?
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • chris_basschris_bass Posts: 4,913
    Yeah, tell all!
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    An excellent result... Closure at last... Well done for sticking with it
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