New wheelset upgrade suggestions?

smig1985

Hi guys, hoping to upgrade my wheelset in the coming weeks/months and looking for some much needed advice. I'm currently riding 2012 Ksyrium Elites, which I will probably keep for winter use as they are totally bombproof, have required zero maintenance thus far and suit the rolling/hilly terrain that I ride on. I've just upgraded my bike in the last few weeks from a Felt Z85 to a Focus Izalco Pro 1.0 and basically want some beefier wheels to match the quality of the new frame. I don't race though may consider it in the not too distant future but for the moment I am kind of disregarding carbon wheels. I'm 62.5/63 kg so would consider myself as more of a climber than anything, hence a really high end set of aluminium wheels should do the trick for me. I seem to be leaning heavily towards Dura ace C24's at the minute, but am open to other suggestions too. Anyone have any experience with the C24's? Great deals on them at the moment aswell... Thanks.

BikeSwan

Those Mavic's are about as good as alloy clinchers get. You can get better ones (the C24's are a good example) but you wont notice much of a difference. For a true "Night and Day" difference you'll have to investigate carbon. ENVE 25's, or Zipp 202's will be an extreme difference compared to the Mavic's.

I'm running Mavic Ksyrium SL's and I use them for hilly races over my (now sold) Zipp 404's, simply because they are stunningly light. My SL's are 1485g and my old 404's were 1750g. Those Mavics are some great wheels, if you want to see a true difference you'll have to drop some serious cash.

Grill

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think a 1 cm tall slab of reinforced plastic will give you any aero advantage. The C24 are not better than the Elites in this respect. As for the lower weight... well, it depends where the weight saving is, if it was at the hub, there is no advantage there either. I think they inherit all the problems without providing any improvement... stick to what you've got, there's nothing new and amazing there

napoleond

I used to have the C24s, I bought Ksyrium Elites as a stop gap, I much prefer them to the DAs, much stiffer, have not noticed any difference from weight/aero perspective at all!

styxd

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

You'll probably "feel" a slight difference. I dont think your times will notice the difference though.

chris_83

Hi all,

I recentley bought a new 2013 Trek Madone 5.2 I'm very happy with the bike but have read that the wheel set (Bontrager Race Rims, with Bontrager R3, 700x23c Tyres) are not quiet up to speed. Im looking to upgrade but would like some advice.

siamon

OP, surely you should try the Elites on the new frame to see if they suit it? There will be no performance improvement from the CL24's but you will notice a big difference in comfort. The DA's are far more supple and comfortable. Personally I find the Elites harsh, unpleasant and tiring. I think the Elites suit heavier riders.

Grill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think a 1 cm tall slab of reinforced plastic will give you any aero advantage. The C24 are not better than the Elites in this respect. As for the lower weight... well, it depends where the weight saving is, if it was at the hub, there is no advantage there either. I think they inherit all the problems without providing any improvement... stick to what you've got, there's nothing new and amazing there

Take a look at the aero difference between the two. Elites are bricks by comparison.
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/Tests-Acheteur/base-de-donnees/TEST-aero-wheels.jpg

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think a 1 cm tall slab of reinforced plastic will give you any aero advantage. The C24 are not better than the Elites in this respect. As for the lower weight... well, it depends where the weight saving is, if it was at the hub, there is no advantage there either. I think they inherit all the problems without providing any improvement... stick to what you've got, there's nothing new and amazing there

Take a look at the aero difference between the two. Elites are bricks by comparison.
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/Tests-Acheteur/base-de-donnees/TEST-aero-wheels.jpg

You really believe that someone didn't have better to do than getting hold of all these wheels and testing them scientifically in a reproducible fashion in reproducible conditions? I don't think anyone has the resources to do so... tests cost money, serious money... for the benefit of whom? Zipp, as it appears... I can post online a graph saying whatever I want, it doesn't need to be real. Unless I see a serious institution taking responsibility for these measurements, they're just as good as the magazines gibberish...

Grill

Check it out for yourself: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

No need to be so pessimistic. With all things equal the C24 still saves over 200 grams with most being rotational mass and not to mention the added bonus of a far superior hub.

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

Check it out for yourself: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

No need to be so pessimistic. With all things equal the C24 still saves over 200 grams with most being rotational mass and not to mention the added bonus of a far superior hub.

It's not pessimism, it's that internet is full of junk. There are no authors, if it was a serious piece of work, authors would like to be acknowledged, as well as funding agency. A day at the wind tunnel... maybe 10 K pounds?
I'm not saying the results are meaningless, just I find it hard to believe someone can do serious aerodynamic studies on a shoestring.
I work in a research institution which is plagued by lack of funding... we can't run the clean room as it costs 100 K per year just to have it running... you have no idea how expensive it is to chuck out some numbers that make any sense in physics or engineering

Grill

Fair enough, but you just have to look at the two wheels and have a basic grasp of aerodynamics to know which will perform better...

smig1985

So 'go carbon' seems to be the best advice then? Now to open up a whole other can of worms...which carbon wheels should I be investigating?

domcarr

I run Ksyrium Elite's on my Scott Foil and they're great. I agree you won't get any major difference - certainly not a discernible one unless you're a pro - until you go way above £1K a wheelset. The Elite's are fantastic all round wheels - light, stiff, smooth, and they look good too.

pedrojake

Grill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think a 1 cm tall slab of reinforced plastic will give you any aero advantage. The C24 are not better than the Elites in this respect. As for the lower weight... well, it depends where the weight saving is, if it was at the hub, there is no advantage there either. I think they inherit all the problems without providing any improvement... stick to what you've got, there's nothing new and amazing there

Take a look at the aero difference between the two. Elites are bricks by comparison.
http://accel6.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/02/72/10/Tests-Acheteur/base-de-donnees/TEST-aero-wheels.jpg

Sorry to be dumb, where are the elites results .... .?

Grill

It's not listed, but the profile is very similar to the Aksium, ES, Equipe, and most importantly R-Sys (dead last) that it's easy to deduce that they won't perform well.

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

It's not listed, but the profile is very similar to the Aksium, ES, Equipe, and most importantly R-Sys (dead last) that it's easy to deduce that they won't perform well.

Assumptions are science worst enemy... If you already know the result, you can be pretty sure the experiment will confirm it... It is called bias

Grill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

It's not listed, but the profile is very similar to the Aksium, ES, Equipe, and most importantly R-Sys (dead last) that it's easy to deduce that they won't perform well.

Assumptions are science worst enemy... If you already know the result, you can be pretty sure the experiment will confirm it... It is called bias

It's called deductive reasoning. Calling it bias is foolhardy. Pray tell, what makes the Elites more aero than any of the Mavic wheelsets listed above? You must have some sort of contention for a counterpoint, otherwise you are just being argumentative for the sake of.

The only difference between the R-Sys and the Elites are the spokes. The rims and hubs are the same. You can't seriously think that the difference between spoke is going to make the Elites more aero than the Aksium (which are again very similar to the Elites).

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

It's not listed, but the profile is very similar to the Aksium, ES, Equipe, and most importantly R-Sys (dead last) that it's easy to deduce that they won't perform well.

Assumptions are science worst enemy... If you already know the result, you can be pretty sure the experiment will confirm it... It is called bias

It's called deductive reasoning. Calling it bias is foolhardy. Pray tell, what makes the Elites more aero than any of the Mavic wheelsets listed above? You must have some sort of contention for a counterpoint, otherwise you are just being argumentative for the sake of.

The only difference between the R-Sys and the Elites are the spokes. The rims and hubs are the same. You can't seriously think that the difference between spoke is going to make the Elites more aero than the Aksium (which are again very similar to the Elites).

Have you seen the size of SYS spokes? Each of them has a girth about as big as a biro pen... If you believe CX ray are aero, then these are the exact opposite. Personally I don't give a txxs about aero, but if one believes in these charts, then assumptions are not valid... they defy the point of spending 10 K for half a day in a wind tunnel

Grill

Which is why I referenced the Aksium, Equipe, and ES (which is basically the original Elite).

Bar Shaker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Grill wrote:

Dunno about that. I'm planning the same upgrade. The C24 is much more aero than the Elites, and when you combine that and the weight loss of 200+ grams I think there will be a noticeable difference, especially for us lighter guys.

I think you are fooling yourself, if you think a 1 cm tall slab of reinforced plastic will give you any aero advantage. The C24 are not better than the Elites in this respect. As for the lower weight... well, it depends where the weight saving is, if it was at the hub, there is no advantage there either. I think they inherit all the problems without providing any improvement... stick to what you've got, there's nothing new and amazing there

I totally agree.

Many people completely misunderstand where the aero advantage of a wheel comes from. It is not the wheel profile as it pushes forward, at the front of the bike, but is in a smooth wheel section replacing rotating spokes.

At the top of the wheel, the spokes are, at their outer extreme, moving forward twice as fast as the bike. If you are riding at 28mph, the spokes are moving forward at 56mph at the top of the wheel. If you replace the fastest part of the spokes with a smooth section of wheel, the drag created by the spokes is considerably reduced. This is the aero advantage of deep section rims and is taken to the extreme on track bikes with their fully enclosed wheels.

At any speed, the bottom of the wheel is stationary (unless wheel spinning!!) and creates no drag at all.

The downside is that the shorter the spokes, the less rigid the wheel becomes. If spinning on a flat course, always seated and always delivering uniform power, the loss of rigidity is not important. There is very little sideways load on the front wheel and the rear wheel is only having a constant small force applied. When the rider starts climbing, each pedal push accelerates the bike and the time between each each power stroke sees gravity decelerate the bike. The force on the rear wheel spokes is much greater. If the rider gets up out of the saddle, strong lateral bending forces are applied to the wheels too.

A really stiff wheel will transfer all of the riders force into forward acceleration but in a less stiff wheel, some of this force will be lost by power strokes flexing the wheels.

If riding in hilly areas and wanting something deep section for cosmetic reasons, consider Cosmic Carbons. These have all of the stiffness and the same wonderfully thin bladed spokes of the Elites, but with a carbon shroud that blanks off the outer ends of the spokes. Because the spokes are still there under the shroud, you retain all the stiffness of the Elites. You also keep an ali braking surface - essential for non racing use, in my book.