Viner problems? Legend? And ideas for £3k

chanjy

Apparently Viner have been having some financial problems and aren't supplying the UK any more - can anyone shed any light on whether they are still a going concern and if dealers will be able to start offering them again?

Also I see Legend seems to have appeared as an option on Bike Science and Le Beau Velo (both listed as Viner dealers on their website) - who are the firm who used to make their higher end frames for them apparently. however information on this brand seems to be very scarce, does anyone have one of their frames? TBH they are really out of my price range but I could be tempted...

I am looking a for a new bike anyhow, and I do have a personal preference for the boutique end of the market (I only have £3k to spend on the whole bike though, so call it 'budget boutique' )

Any suggestions for others in the absence of Viner? Their Gladium frame looked like a custom made carbon option for ~£1.5k which was a pretty attractive price point which would get me a good groupset and some handbuilt wheels for my money. I want a modern looking road bike and am also considering Brian Rourke 953 steel at the moment. I'm not that unusally shaped in all honesty, so I don't NEED a custom frame, I just want one . And would definitely want something that comes with a good fitting session to get me 100% comfortable.

rolf_f

I tried to buy a Viner from Epic cycles but it got so drawn out I gave in and bought a Look instead (good fitting session for that at Epic - well worth looking at their website. They are Southwest of Birmingham and I'm in Leeds but it was still worth the trouble - I spent a day fitting and test riding).

Someone on here did state that Viner frames were actually made by another company - in Italy. Unfortunately I forget the name although I recall it not sounding at all Italian! I daresay someone will prompt! Edit - duh! I should read your post! It was Legend!! :oops:

Incidentally, no point going custom unless the custom dimensions are going to be different to the non custom! Fortunately for me, when the Viner sale fell through we discovered that the Look I bought was virtually geometrically identical to the bespoke Viner I would have ordered.

Beatmaker

Rolf F wrote:

Someone on here did state that Viner frames were actually made by another company - in Italy. Unfortunately I forget the name although I recall it not sounding at all Italian! I daresay someone will prompt! Edit - duh! I should read your post! It was Legend!! :oops:

Some frames maybe produced by another manufacturer, but I have been to the Viner facility and can confirm they do manufacture in-house.

DrDavros

AFAIK, some of the top-end Viners are made by Marco Bertoletti (www.mbbike.it) - and they certainly used to be considerably cheaper purchased directly from him than with the Viner name on the tubes.

In a similar vein, Sarto & Pelizzoli both make some tasty equipment. Pelizzoli now has a hand-made custom carbon frame that looks very, very nice as well as his traditional steel beautie s (not sure of the price). Sartos are very nice, too, and I think you can pick up a stock Sarto bike with mid-range Campag for your budget.

chanjy

DrDavros wrote:

AFAIK, some of the top-end Viners are made by Marco Bertoletti (http://www.mbbike.it) - and they certainly used to be considerably cheaper purchased directly from him than with the Viner name on the tubes.

In a similar vein, Sarto & Pelizzoli both make some tasty equipment. Pelizzoli now has a hand-made custom carbon frame that looks very, very nice as well as his traditional steel beautie s (not sure of the price). Sartos are very nice, too, and I think you can pick up a stock Sarto bike with mid-range Campag for your budget.

The Pelizzoli Aeta on the PelizzoliWorld website looks extremely tasty indeed, although no idea on cost or how I would order one, let alone get fitted correctly! Any ideas?

DrDavros

As with all the boutique builders in Italy, the best approach is probably to get fitted / measured up at home and then contact them directly via the website (I think someone at Pelizzoli can deal with you in English). I also know someone who has a Sarto and went down there in person to get measured up: its a stunner, and cost rather less than a C59.

Another route for Pelizzoli might be via Maestro UK - he actually lists the Aeta at £1900 ish: see; http://www.maestro-uk.com/colnago-Pricelist.aspx and the carbon frame at (just) £2,200, which I'd say is a bit of a steal compared to what else you could get at that price.

mrushton

There is a review of the Legend in the new ProCycling (Chris Froome on the cover). It's custom built for Marcel Wust and he goes into the details

chanjy

I mentioned I was considering Brian Rourke... have phoned up twice, been told the guy who deals with custom frames is busy and left my number both times and never had a call back.

a) Is this normal? Seems a bit rude.

b) Are they so swimming in customers that they don't need to bother calling people back?

Beatmaker

chanjy wrote:

I mentioned I was considering Brian Rourke... have phoned up twice, been told the guy who deals with custom frames is busy and left my number both times and never had a call back.

a) Is this normal? Seems a bit rude.

b) Are they so swimming in customers that they don't need to bother calling people back?

It seems at odds with all the positive feedback they get. What timescale are we talking? If its a couple of days give them some time to respond. If its been a while perhaps call one last time and politely explain that it's your third call, and you won't be calling a fourth time if no one responds this time.

vinerbikesuk

Peter here from Viner UK, thought I should put the record straight on this thread as the facts seem to be going astray.

We have been importing and developing the Viner brand in the UK for over 10 years now, this Jan' we found out that our current orders "work in progress" were not going to be delivered within the time scales [40 days from order, orders went back to Oct 2011] we had been told. The official communication from the factory was that they had "difficulties " to this day they have not explained what these difficulties are.

When pushed to give a delivery date we were told one could not be given. Reading between the lines and from information given to me from my many contacts in the business [the Italian cycling world is really quite huge, but at the same time quite small] I came to the conclusion that they had quite serious problems and that they had ceased production of new made to measure frames.

At which point we had a duty [via our dealers] to let the 30 or more customers who were waiting for their frames know this and to try and find a solution for them. In many cases we have been working with them for weeks/months, from bike fitting, to frame design, to final bike specification.

Who builds Viner frames? most bike companies outsource their frame production to specialist "frame building workshops" this can vary from one off production runs, say for a new season [i.e. if building in Asia they may have a whole years projected production made in one run] to individual made to measure orders. Viner's philosophy has been more towards providing their customers with this made to measure "tailored" service and very much having these frames made in Italy. Over the years that I have worked with Viner I have seen them working with four or more said frame builders. I should also point out, to their favour, that in most cases their working relationship was not the common mercenary one, going to whoever would build their frames for the cheapest price, but one of building long term development and joint venture with their builders.

The future for Viner? I know they have tried to sell the brand name and possibly the business, therefore [again my personal opinion] I do not think they will re-start the business again.

Update on this, we have since found out that Viner spa Italy has gone into administration and the factory has closed. Planet X have brought the brand name.

Please note, with regards to "made to measure" frames/bikes, a big misconception people make is that if a stock size frame fits you it is the same as having the custom made frame, it is not. The reason is that in gauging what is the correct size frame most people just look at say the top tube and seat tube lengths. A true custom frame is one which is "designed" for you, were millimetres make a difference, were all the areas of the frame/ bike design are taken into account

Front wheel base Head angle Rear wheel base Tube profile BB height Head tube Ratio of stem to top tube length Seat angle Seat pin set back Saddle design Shoe and pedal system

If you change one of the above it then effects all the other settings. It is a real skill and art to be able to do this correctly, something very few people in the world of cycling know how to.

Do not get me wrong, being on the right size frame and set up correctly is a lot better than no. But I can assure you there is something else about being completely at one with your bike, a bike 100% designed to work together with you, to go faster, further and in more comfort. But as you say what you do not know you will never miss, I remind myself of this every time I set off on my bike now, why did I not have the chance to get fitted and measured up 30 years ago, I kick myself for all those lost years.

rolf_f

vinerbikesuk wrote:

Please note, with regards to "made to measure" frames/bikes, a big misconception people make is that if a stock size frame fits you it is the same as having the custom made frame, it is not. The reason is that in gauging what is the correct size frame most people just look at say the top tube and seat tube lengths. A true custom frame is one which is "designed" for you, were millimetres make a difference, were all the areas of the frame/ bike design are taken into account

This isn't what Viner offered though was it? I attempted once to buy a Viner (not a Maxima if it makes a difference) and it was really more made to measure than bespoke - the angles weren't up for discussion other than how they were affected by the tube lengths of the main triangle.

In the end, I gave up as Viner weren't able to supply bikes to test ride and got a Look which matched the dimensions we'd planned to send Viner. It was an expensive process as the Look was a lot more expensive than the Viner I wanted (approaching Maxima money) but my priority was fit rather than brand.

Anyway, shame it looks like its all about to fall over but I'm somehow not surprised. In the unlikely event that my Look frame needs to be replaced, Legend will be high on my list (particularly since Look no longer make any frames to fit me!).

vinerbikesuk

In the Viner range they offered 80% of their frames full made to measure, [there were some carbon monoque frames in fixed sizes]

What you will find is the difference in service that the dealer offer their customers, Epic did not really want to go down the road of offering full made to measure as it did not fit their business model at the time.

rajMAN

Peter, Thanks for the info, a real shame the Viner name may never be produced again. I must therefore treasure my two from now on.

Legend_UK

For anyone interested.

clincher3

a-z

daveplanetx

I think you need to maintain some balance and perspective here , there are a lot of major italian brands facing tough trading conditions and Viner are no exception . I know they are trying to find a way through , but a lot of great italian brands are struggling and trying to find a path forward . Probably the most straightforward solution is to go consumer direct however the italian direct sell internet market hasnt really happened yet , only a few companies are making progress .

Their issues arise largely from having quite an outdated distribution model with both dealers and distributors taking huge chunks of margin , around 30% and 40% leaving the actual brand owner with very little margin. Throw on top of that that simply getting paid by the aforesaid dealer / distributor can then be a titanic time consuming battle in itself then its easy to see how a famous brand can hit the rocks , especially if they take on large bad debts .

I think these rumours of Viners demise are greatly exagerated , .

huuregeil

Any info on the pricing of the Ti Legend frames? Thanks!

TheEnglishman

daveplanetx wrote:

Their issues arise largely from having quite an outdated distribution model with both dealers and distributors taking huge chunks of margin , around 30% and 40% leaving the actual brand owner with very little margin. Throw on top of that that simply getting paid by the aforesaid dealer / distributor can then be a titanic time consuming battle in itself then its easy to see how a famous brand can hit the rocks , especially if they take on large bad debts .

That's bonkers. How difficult is it to set up a website, sell direct (globally) and use DHL/Fed Ex etc to send the stuff. Oh, hang on, there a website specialising in just that and there's also a large, rather populous country in the far east exploiting just this idea. :roll:

clincher3

The Legend Ti frames start at £4.500 anf go up to £ 6.300 depends which model, check the new website:

www.legend-bikes.com

chanjy

:shock:

Good to see some life in the old thread!

So I went and saw Mal at Le Beau Velo in Shoreditch and he couldn't have been more helpful - showed me a Legend HT9.5 frame and forks and we had a good chat. Beautifully finished and the paint job was very nice. Apparently Alfa Romeo do it for them? 8)
He has a queen (the Ti frame with the carbon seat tube) in shop as well and that was also immaculate.

Same frame builder as the top Viners, as mentioned. Apparently the 9.5 is roughly equivalent to the Maxima RS2, 7.5 the Mitus and the 5.7 the Perfecta (although apparently the Perfecta was not made by Marco so although it's a similar price it's not the same product).

I was very tempted to order, however couldn't quite get one and be close to the budget if I wanted any decent groupset and wheel so decided to hold off for now.

cyclingfury

Marco Bertoletti - best frame builder in the world. I KNEW I made the right decision 6 years ago!!

Chip \'oyler

cyclingfury wrote:

Marco Bertoletti - best frame builder in the world. I KNEW I made the right decision 6 years ago!!

Deffo. He built my Viner Maxima

timmyflash

Marco also makes Comtat's bikes. Also very cool looking bikes. Showroom in Shoreditch.

http://www.comtat.co.uk/

giant_man

timmyflash wrote:

Marco also makes Comtat's bikes. Also very cool looking bikes. Showroom in Shoreditch.

http://www.comtat.co.uk/

hmm didn't know that, the Legend range does look yummy ....

Monty Dog

Wow, Marco Bertoletti must be doing well if he can more than double his prices by changing his brand name!
I'm with Planet-X Dave with many companies using outdated distribution models through "official UK' dealer nonsense, hold no stock and expect to command a +20% premium. Warranties are valid EU wide - it's the law.
With the £ a lot stronger against the Euro, you're only a few clicks away from a better deal in Europe.
For the OP, these day's I'm afraid £3k is mid range for a whole bike and you'll be pretty well limited to custom steel unless you fancy trying custom titanium direct from a factory in China.

LegendLust

timmyflash wrote:

Marco also makes Comtat's bikes. Also very cool looking bikes. Showroom in Shoreditch.

http://www.comtat.co.uk/

Well you learn something new everyday

Legend_UK

Customers are free to buy from where ever they want.

LegendLust

Legend_UK wrote:

Mr Monty, if you are going to quote facts please make sure they are correct. Marco has actually REDUCED his prices from 2011, not doubled them! He has expanded his range of frames he offers, carbon frames now start at £2000 for the frameset which is cheaper than the models other brands he made for used to sell at.

Customers are free to buy from where ever they want, however buying a handmade custom frame, built for each individual customer, with custom geometry, custom paint finish combined with a professional bike fit is a bit more than a "mouse click away" It takes skill and years of experience, let alone a lot of hard work to ensure that the customer really gets all of the above delivered correctly. This is the job of your local dealer and national distribution networks NOT an internet web site. The internet is fine for "box shifting" but this is not what Legend or made to measure bikes is all about. Would you buy a made to measure Savile Row suit off the Net?
Then how would your average customer get on trying to do all of this in Italian? What happens when the bike needs servicing? What happens when you adapt to your new bike position and need to be seen by the Bio Mechanic [Bike fitter] to adjust your position? Are you going to be able to fly to a warehouse [with your bike box] in Italy to get all of this done?

Running our bike fitting "surgery" in the UK, we have seen so many customers who have wasted their money buying made to measure frames/bikes that have been built incorrectly, this is sad to see, apart from the expense involved they have wasted their time and at worst done themselves an injury riding on the wrong bike in the wrong position.
As for Distribution models & UK distribution... there is more to selling a premium bike brand than "putting it up on line" and "selling it cheap" why do you have such a problem with someone being paid for doing a good & professional job? Would you go out to work for nothing? Sorry but you are wrong again, the UK distributor does "have stock" both to sell and for demonstration purposes.

To end on a positive note...In a couple of weeks Legend UK will be launching a new Carbon Road bike with a limited offer [UNDER 3k] HT 4.7 Carbon with 11speed Campag Chorus gearing.

That's a great post.

And a HT4.7 with Chorus for under £3,000? I might be having some of that!

giant_man

it is a great post .....

clincher3

a-z

letap73

clincher3 wrote:

Wow, Marco Bertoletti must be doing well if he can more than double his prices by changing his brand name!
I'm with Planet-X Dave with many companies using outdated distribution models through "official UK' dealer nonsense, hold no stock and expect to command a +20% premium. Warranties are valid EU wide - it's the law.
With the £ a lot stronger against the Euro, you're only a few clicks away from a better deal in Europe.
For the OP, these day's I'm afraid £3k is mid range for a whole bike and you'll be pretty well limited to custom steel unless you fancy trying custom titanium direct from a factory in China.

Good reply Legend, what is this guy on about, sounds like he is clueless how does the industry work, I have certainly seen disasters bought on line.

Just like you dont get your wife on line[some do] I wont get my bike

At least Monty dog is capable of putting across his arguments in a semi-coherent fashion.