TIME RXRS Ulteam Failure! No warranty support

jjbrit1031
jjbrit1031 Posts: 21
edited June 2013 in Road general
HELP!

I am having all sorts of issues with TIME, PBK and Chicken.

I have a 6 month old RXRS Time Ulteam that cost me more than i can to admit. Over the past few months i have noticed flex in the rear which i could not pin point. I thouhght it might be the wheels, but it turns out it was more serious than that.

This weekend the whole rear triangle collapsed! Complete fairure right at the bond join at the seat stays. This was when climbing, hear a pop and a few moments later the frame gave way.

I was a good customer, registered the frame as soon as i got it, took care of it and was even a public supporter of TIME.

I took it to the Local time dealer who agreed that it was a failure and should be covered under warranty.

However, Time now say that PBK and Chicken are no longer dealers and will not honour the warranty.

The were fine when i registered the frame, but now I need them to replace it they will not.

For a frame of the cost of a TIME you would expect more.

Any help or support i woul be very grateful. I can not afford to replace it, as this was the last extravagance before starting a family.

I can not believe that they would be so non supportive to thier customers.

Please help!

Jason
«1

Comments

  • Beatmaker
    Beatmaker Posts: 1,092
    Have you contacted PBK? Your contract of sale is with them, and regardless of whether they are a dealer or not, they are obliged to sort you out.
  • tried... no replay. I will not stop until someone sorts this out.

    J
  • Beatmaker
    Beatmaker Posts: 1,092
    Seems odd. Yes, keep on them. If they can't / won't sort a replacement Time frame, and you aren't happy to accept an alternative then get a refund and source one elsewhere, assuming you are still happy on Time if they have been difficult. This is of course, assuming the frame has failed due to a manufacturing fault like it sounds it has.
  • ShutUpLegs
    ShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    What did PBK actually say when you phoned them :?:
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Yes, your claim is with PBK and no-one else - if you paid by credit card then get them involved as the goods are not fit for purpose - if the card company are satisfied that the claim is valid then they will issue you a refund and then go after PBK themselves. Don't let PBK fob you off with the RJC / Time thing - that's their problem, not yours. Familiarise yourself with the Sale of Goods Act and use that as the basis for your claim. You may need to get an independent report to verify the cause of frame failure - whatever you do, don't leave the frame with PBK / Chicken or Time - manufacturers have been known to destroy broken frames and then still deny your warranty claim.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • Wirral_paul
    Wirral_paul Posts: 2,476
    Get in touch with Trading Standards straight away if PBK show the same disinterest as Time and Chicken. As others say though, PBK is your first port of call.

    The Warranty seems pretty clear to me though - you purchased from a Time dealer at the date of purchase and so Time shouldnt argue with PBK when they call Time Customer Service. Their terms do state though that claims should go via the dealer, andTime wont get away with any argument about PBK no longer being an authorised dealer. They were at the time of sale and thats all that should matter. Still, your contract of sale is with PBK and the goods aren't fit for purpose - and anyone should expect a very expensive frame to last more than 6 months (unless it is accident damage)

    http://time.nextedia.com/upload/PagesdeMODULERXRULTEAMUS.pdf
  • pdsalmon
    pdsalmon Posts: 55
    A quick google should find the cheif executive's email address. Send them an email - it usually gets attention quite quickly after that.

    I've done this a couple of times and had success. And an email is free!

    Credit card is a good shout too - they will cover for products not fit for purpose.
  • Still nothing from Time. They are a new level of useless.

    Take a peek at this video. You can see how badly this frame failed.

    http://youtu.be/SALCBpG9y9Q
  • Have you contacted PBK?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ShutUpLegs
    ShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    Have you contacted PBK?

    Obviously not
  • CONTACT PBK !!!!!!!!!!
    Specialized FSR XC Comp
    Scott Speedster S55
  • Still nothing from Time. They are a new level of useless.

    Take a peek at this video. You can see how badly this frame failed.

    http://youtu.be/SALCBpG9y9Q

    No, you are a whole level of useless. You don't sem to be able to comprehend the law, or language or common sense.

    Your agreement is with the retailer but you don't seem to be able to work in receive mode and are stuck on 'transmit'.

    Sort it out with Trading Standards and the people who sold it to you.

    If you car fails you don't turn up at the factory gates and demand action do you ?

    If your washing machine fails, you don't take it toa factory in China and demand action do you ?
  • gabriel959
    gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Exactly, Call PBK, they should sort it out, if they don't then contact Trading Standards.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • I have contacted PBK and they are doing what they can, but it is TIME that is the issue.

    I think that some people need to look at the trading standards law and the MANUFACTURING warranty. The issue is with TIME, not PBK. They can are helping me facilitate it, but the issues is with TIME who offer the lifetime warranty.

    I is amazing how some people have NO manners. If your car was a Lemon, you take it to the dealer who then takes it up with the factory. If the factory does not care, then you have an issue.

    Companies need to stand by their products. If there is an issue, they need to sort it out. You pay a premium for Time and expect to have the support they promise at the time of sale. It seem that it is the case once they have your money, they no longer care.

    Imagine it was your bike, the LBS wants to help but the manufacturer will not. How would you feel?
  • why dont u sue them in small claims court. just get a legal advice who to sue (time or dealer) and what the reason to state in the papers. you will get your frame back and they will pay court fees and the advice fees.

    moreover i am pretty sure once you send them correctly written letter with explanation what you are about to do - they will budge.

    just make sure there is evidence it was manufacturing defect and there is no room for speculation that you actually broke it.
  • gezebo
    gezebo Posts: 364
    I take/send loads of things back when they break. About 75% of the time i send them back to the manufacturer(together with proof of purchase) as they are not in stock in the shop or the shop is miles away- I live in a rural area. If there is a genuine fault with the product then they always send a replacement. I've often got upgrades too :-)

    I don't know how your frame got damaged, but if, as you say, it was a manufacturing defect then going to them directly would in my opinion seem perfectly reasonable. Given that you claim they have a lifetime warranty on the frames I would expect them to at least inspect the frame.

    You need to actually write to them spelling out your course of action and ask them to reply in writing why they won't even at least inspect your frame...

    I've been through the small claims system a number of times and found it very fair (although slow). Interestingly although small claims courts do apply the laws, they also apply a large degree of common sense. I suspect taking TIME to court would produce results, although I doubt it would ever get that far... I've also been to trading standards and found them to be as much use as a chocolate fireguard!
  • As has been said to you several times you clearly do not listen.
    I have contacted PBK and they are doing what they can, but it is TIME that is the issue.

    Yes and that is PBK's issue - not yours. PBK have a legal relationships with you regarding the sale and you are not party to any agreement with Time. The lifetime warranty is between you and PBK. You don't have any warranty with Time.
    I think that some people need to look at the trading standards law and the MANUFACTURING warranty. The issue is with TIME, not PBK. They can are helping me facilitate it, but the issues is with TIME who offer the lifetime warranty.

    Again, you read what suits you and not what is legal. Trading standards applies between buyer and seller. You are the buyer, PBK are the seller, You have NO relationship with Time. Time offer a lifetime warranty to PBK, PBK offer a lifetime warranty to you. you have NO legal relationship with Time. Manufacturing warranty is irrelevant as you didn't buy from a manufacturer. You need to get past this point as until you do, you're going to get zero from everyone. You're being played by PBK using Time as an excuse.
    I is amazing how some people have NO manners. If your car was a Lemon, you take it to the dealer who then takes it up with the factory. If the factory does not care, then you have an issue.

    People are fristrated that you simply ignore facts, law and common sense. Behave like an idiot and you get treated like one. "If a car was a lemon" ..... the definition is a US recognised one, not a UK one so again, you're quoting irrelevancies as if they were somehow pertinent. If it were a problem car, your issue is 100% with the dealer, not the manufacturer. If the factory doesn't care then the dealer has a problem, but only if you deal with the dealer via the UK legal system. Again, you misunderstand the fundamentals of buyers, sellers and the law, and blithely carry on bleating.
    Companies need to stand by their products. If there is an issue, they need to sort it out. You pay a premium for Time and expect to have the support they promise at the time of sale. It seem that it is the case once they have your money, they no longer care.

    Again, without going over the same basic point again and again, you bought from X and you expect Y to sort out the problems. Time have a distributor to deal with the public - and you do seem to be very willing to accept that the legal entity that sold you the bike is somehow not responsible. News flash - you're wrong, the UK law says you are wrong and time you worked within the UK law. Its up to PBK to sort out their issue with Time but that issue is completely irrelevant to what PBK do for you.
    Imagine it was your bike, the LBS wants to help but the manufacturer will not. How would you feel?

    I'd be taking it out on the person/company that I bought the bike from via the small claims court, not bleating about a third party from whom you bought nothing, got nothing and have no legal obligation to you under UK law. If the LBS wants to help, they can buy you a replacement and take it up with their supplier - don't you think its obvious why that they don't want to do that ? Maybe because its cheaper for them to fob you off with a tired, illegal excuse and watch you swallow it hook, line and sinker.

    This is why you get no sympathy here - the UK law is very clearly developed in this area but you seem to ignore it or think you know better.

    Have a look here http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shoppi ... ange#goods half way down under the "Know who's responsible" section. It cannot be any clearer. If you cannot comprehend that, then you're a lost cause and so is your bike.

    Sorry !
  • siamon
    siamon Posts: 274
    Proper bikeradar knowledge. Pompous, judgemental, mocking and WRONG.

    There are numerous goods where the manufacturer honours the warranty NOT the point of sale.

    For example whenever I have a problem with my Garmin products, I am required to return it to GARMIN, not my local running shop where I brought it. This I do, and GARMIN replace or repair.

    I am very interested in this thread because that frame is/was top of my wanted list. But no frigging way will I deal with a company that behaves with that level of customer concern. Proper scumbags.

    A mate got a chinese frame (against my advice which was, what happens if theres a problem?), it had signs of damage after 6 months, the chinese refunded him in full, including postage, without requiring to see the frame. Whilst I would still question the frames, the customer service from them was tip top.

    OP should take Montys advice and under no circumstances return the frame. Look at the way TIME are behaving, expecting them to sudddenly act with honesty or decency would be foolish in the extreme.

    This is a very very disappointing thread.
  • siamon
    siamon Posts: 274
    Take all paperwork to any two bit cheapo lawyer will be able to tell who who is liable for the warranty (Where you bought it may have been acting as an agent). Then small claims court. If the lawyer is wrong about who you sue, (which they probably will be) then they will have to pay your losses. If it ends up in court, will cost you about 100 odd quid. Don't mess about at that stage, go in with an expert report about the frame. Add the costs of this to your claim. This needs to say that the frame has a manufacturing fault and that the damage has been created by normal use. Then flip a coin to see what the Judge will say.

    And good luck.
  • siamon wrote:
    There are numerous goods where the manufacturer honours the warranty NOT the point of sale.

    +1 in the past 3years, I've purchased several electrical items for the house, washing machine, dryer, fridge-freezer and hoover. Everyone stated that for any warranty issues contact them directly. i.e the manufacturer, 3 different ones.

    Lots of things are not as black and white as people think. However I think the OP is going way OTT on comments and hounding Time.
    If he contacts trading standards as he has been told to do all they will say is he needs to give PBK reasonable time to resolve the issue. (I have first hand knowledge of this, although be it with an electrical item)

    For me I purchased a powermac from an apple dealer, it died with in a week and I was not offered a replacement and was expected to send it back to them some 60+miles away for an engineer who was on holiday to look at it 2 weeks later. Not happy I contacted TS and they said they were in their rights to look at it and try to fix before offering a replacement. They also said that upto 4 weeks was 'reasonable time'.

    As PBK need to speak to TIME and if they need to speak to a department abroad then who knows what reasonable time would be to resolve it?
  • The fact some manufacturers will sort out problems direct takes nothing away from the fact that the contract is between the buyer and the seller. As such if there is a problem (and assuming neither manufacturer nor retailer will take responsibility as is the case here) then it's the retailer that should be chased and if necessary be the subject of legal action.

    The OP should definitely be dealing with PBK in this instance.
  • There are numerous goods where the manufacturer honours the warranty NOT the point of sale.

    Ignorance of the Law seems to be a common thread.

    That is a CHOICE of the manufacturer - it is NOT a legal obligation. Because they CHOOSE to do that, doesn't mean they have to do it. Because they do it for you, does not mean that they MUST do it for someone else.
    For example whenever I have a problem with my Garmin products, I am required to return it to GARMIN, not my local running shop where I brought it. This I do, and GARMIN replace or repair.

    No, you CHOOSE to return it to Garmin. You are legally entitled to return it to the shop/supplier, not to Garmin but if Garmin are happy and the shop are happy then so be it. That does not make it a legal obligation under the law. I too have had Garmin devices go wrong and I returned one to Amazon and another to Wiggle. I got both back. In fact, I got the Wiggle return back before it could have possibly come back to them from Garmin i.e. the actual supplier met the legal obligation irrespective of the performance of the manufacturer.

    Your personal experience does not alter the law and the obligations of the shop selling the product. Get over it, the law isn't going to change any time soon (no pun intended).
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    siamon wrote:
    Proper bikeradar knowledge. Pompous, judgemental, mocking and WRONG.

    It must be like buses - first one person comes along who ignores the sage advice given here and then along comes another...the threads above have all the information you need, much of it gained from professional or first hand experience in the bike trade. Bitch, moan and whine about Time as much as you like, but the claim is with PBK.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • siamon
    siamon Posts: 274
    Haven't seen a PBK contract but assuming the warranty is with the supplier from who you ordered and collected from is ignorant and may lead to a nasty shock come court time. And quoting one piece of law about liabilities just shows naivety. But having looked at the OP's video I know that I would expect a manufacturer, importer or retailer to jump through hoops to make sure that was resolved and anyone who thinks the OP is out of line getting upset is acting retarded.

    Nobody knows who a court would hold liable. Anyone who says they do know is a pompous, self important tool.
  • gabriel959
    gabriel959 Posts: 4,227
    Your contract is with the retailer for the first year, you contact them their problem, yes really, the law is clear and this has been done a hundred times, if they refuse to co-operate its Trading Standards and then Small Claim Courts. It is really that simple.

    Anyone that claims otherwise is a ignorant clueless fool.
    x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
    Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
    Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
    Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra
  • siamon wrote:
    Haven't seen a PBK contract but assuming the warranty is with the supplier from who you ordered and collected from is ignorant and may lead to a nasty shock come court time. And quoting one piece of law about liabilities just shows naivety. But having looked at the OP's video I know that I would expect a manufacturer, importer or retailer to jump through hoops to make sure that was resolved and anyone who thinks the OP is out of line getting upset is acting retarded.

    Nobody knows who a court would hold liable. Anyone who says they do know is a pompous, self important tool.
    Honestly, it's really not complicated:

    http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... ur-rights/
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Consumer rights in this country are not great no matter what the law says, its easy to be fobbed off and once you get in dispute with a (any) dealer you ve had it really, time, money and an uncertain outcome.

    As for independant reports? well, anyone tried that? Independant from whom? certainly not from the guy paying for the "expert" opinion on his frame.

    If it were me, i would contact the current (as listed on the TIME website) importer who is:
    Extra Uk Ltd
    29 MENELIK RD
    NW2 3RJ LONDON
    (44) 207 431 64 43

    and ask them for help and advice, that would be what you d have to do if PBK had ceased trading.
  • Godders1 wrote:
    siamon wrote:
    Haven't seen a PBK contract but assuming the warranty is with the supplier from who you ordered and collected from is ignorant and may lead to a nasty shock come court time. And quoting one piece of law about liabilities just shows naivety. But having looked at the OP's video I know that I would expect a manufacturer, importer or retailer to jump through hoops to make sure that was resolved and anyone who thinks the OP is out of line getting upset is acting retarded.

    Nobody knows who a court would hold liable. Anyone who says they do know is a pompous, self important tool.
    Honestly, it's really not complicated:

    http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... ur-rights/

    Great site and link...

    To quote:

    Who to complain to
    If you think you have a claim under the Sale of Goods Act for one of the reasons above, you have several possible remedies, depending on the circumstances and on what you want done.

    In most cases, your rights are against the retailer – the company that sold you the product – not the manufacturer, and so you must take any claim against the retailer. However, if you have bought something on hire purchase (HP), it is the HP company that is responsible.


    And to make it easier (and official) for the OP..
    http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... e-letters/

    Send 'PBK' a letter via the above template. As people have stated, the Sale Of Goods Act (SOGA) is with the retailer and not the manufacturer, although some manufacturer's prefer you to deal directly with them (you are entitled to deal with the retailer even in these situations, but obviously it's generally in your interest to deal directly to speed up the process)

    Once 'PBK' have the letter and official claim, it's up to 'PBK' to sort it all out. And obviously once they have the official claim, the SOGA also states that the retailer needs to sort out the issue within a reasonable time, and if not there can be additional penalties.

    To quote:

    Under the Sale of Goods Act, the retailer must either repair or replace the goods 'within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience'. If the seller doesn't do this, you are entitled to claim either:

    - reduction on the purchase price, or
    - your money back, minus an amount for the usage you've had of the goods (called 'recision').

    If the retailer refuses to repair the goods, and they won't replace them either, you may have the right to arrange for someone else to repair it, and then claim compensation from the retailer for the cost of doing this.


    Good luck and hope it all works out.
    Simon
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Do you know what you are talking about or even fully read the WHICH page? Have you ever made a claim against a retailer for an expensive (£1000's) item that they wont relace/refund/repair? and succeeded!

    at 6 months its down to the OP to prove it was unfit for purpose. His chances of that are NIL.
    At the very best TIME will want the frame back and how long will that take??? and by now he has pee'd off the supplier and TIME - so what r they likely to say?

    they could easily say that damage was caused hitting a pot hole, crash or even he ran over the bike in his car !

    The SoG act is there for retailers who want to abide by it not for consumers.

    his best bet is to get the new importer to help him, keep PBK on-side OR what i d have done in the first place, made a claim for accidental damage under my household/bike insurance.

    I ve been through this minefield before and the stress and time involved is very difficult to take and unless you ve a hell of alot of money, you ll rarely if ever succeed - perhaps if you get on BBCs Watchdog :)
  • nferrar
    nferrar Posts: 2,511
    Kinda glad I went with a Look not Time now for my last bike!
    Just to repeat what's already been said (by those that know rather than think they know) your contract is with the retailer, the act of paying for the goods forms the contract and you paid PBK not Time. That contract is your legal basis for any claim, not anything you might have read from ill-informed people on the Internet.
    Having a contract doesn't solve your problem though, as I see it you have two choices; continue to escalate with PBK (use the letter template above and be prepared to inform trading standards) or accept they'll continue to mess you about and go down the claim route (at which point you have courts, credit card company or house insurance as possible options). For me I'd go credit card company first (you did buy on credit card right...?) then house insurance assuming your policy covers it and as a last resort go the courts route as that's far more hassle for you.
    You do have a right to be angry and frustrated with Time though, I would have expected them to step-in and go above and beyond their legal requirement given they're a premium brand and you bought one of their top of the line products - I'm sure lots of other frame manufacturers would have. The other advice about not sending the frame back to Time if they do offer to help is a tricky one - I agree it's risky in that they may 'lose' the frame and then your claim will be much harder but on the other hand any legal claim you have will allow for the retailer to inspect the frame and they'd likely want to (and be justified in doing so) have Time inspect it on their behalf.