Front Wheel- Broken Spoke

Danny87

Hi guys first of all sorry for the long winded explanation but hate it when people ask for advice but don't give allot of insight to the problem at hand.

I weigh about 70kg, or 154Ibs, or 11stone. I'm 5"8 rather strong and live on hills. Front wheel, Hope Hoop (mavic open pro, 32 spokes, hope pro 3 hub).

Leant against something carelessly in garage, spoke snaps at the hub. Send to lbs, replaces spoke, hunky dory. Get's out, snaps a spoke after about 20-30 miles front wheel, hobbles home. Sends wheel back to lbs, goes out a few times maybe 200-250 miles total, snaps a spoke front wheel.

I don't think in my humble opinion just a new spoke will fix this, opinions welcome, and even if it does, it won't leave me filled with confidence when out on it. The rim is not exactly bent in 2 but is obviously fairly out of whack less 1 of the spokes lol.

Question, if I get a new mavic open pro rim, new spokes and save the hub as works lovely, have built up by a lbs or a local wheel builder (few good ones here in the Northwest England I believe), is this going to cost more than £100?

Or should I attempt a build myself with no real wheel build experience, and just a bike fork and tool key?

Or just buy another hope hoop from Merlin for £100?

balthazar

Something in your account doesn't sound quite right. "Leaning against something in the garage" won't cause a good spoke to fail. If you did stretch a spoke, by bending it against something, so far that it snapped, the broken part would have a characteristic appearance: necked out at the break, and obviously distorted. That would demand an extremely high load which isn't easy to apply accidentally.

I think the first spoke was already broken almost totally through from fatigue, an invisible crack until failure, and it eventually broke when you leaned it against something innocuously. The next spoke went in use, as expected. I think most of your spokes are fatigued this way already and are simply going one by one.

The solution is to rebuild the wheel with new spokes. Only do this yourself if you're interested enough to buy the relevant book and take the time to understand what you're doing. Much about building good wheels is not obvious and won't be guessed. Conversely, it only takes care and commitment, not sage-like wisdom or experience.

Otherwise, have somebody experienced (and ideally, recommended) do it for you- surely for less than £100.

Danny87

Quite possible the spokes were are fatigued, however the wheel is just this month 12 months old and has probably done somewhere between 3500-5000 miles at a guess.

As far as pressure being placed on the wheel in the garage etc. Could be as the garage is accessible by my family. But I'm not on a witch hunt

Well doing the maths, what's a new black open pro rim £40-£50, what's 32 black spokes £20-£30 I don't know? Then labour costs.. So is £100 realistic, and if in which case would be better buying a new wheel as would get a new hub for practically nalt..

balthazar

My point was that the failure wasn't caused by some event in the garage (which I thought you suspected). Fatigue failure is the only real possibility for the events you report.

The prices sound about right to me but I don't really know, not having bought much like that lately. I'd just rebuild on the basis that the original hub and rim are otherwise wasted, and replacement is needless. Also, you have the opportunity to choose a builder who may do a better job.

team47b

Buy a new wheel, then you are back on the road.

Buy the rim/spokes/book on wheel building as and when you can afford/when they are in a sale and learn a new skill as in the future when you get more broken spokes, you will then be able to sort it, without paying the LBS costs.

giropaul

Once a rim has deformed past a certain point it will always be trying to revert to the deformed state.

Therefore, any spoke breakage that has put the wheel into a "pringled" condition, to the extent that it won't spin through the brake blocks , means a new rim in my view.

The alternative is constant grief, as is being described.

ugo.santalucia

It's very unusual for the front wheel to give problems... on the other hand fixing a front wheel is very easy and the best way to get into wheel DIY.
I don't see why you should need a new rim, unless it's worn or you damaged it badly by hitting a crater sized pothole

Twostage

So hope that's clear then :-

Replace the rim or not.
Build it yourself or get someone else to do it
or buy a new one.

Danny87

Lol clear as day! I'm not in a rush I've got a couple of other sets of training wheels.

Tbh I think building my own wheel without tension gauge and proper wheel jig is a no no. So it's either dive in and invest in at least a guage and other tools. Which sounds costly but potentially rewarding in the long term.

Or rely on lbs for rebuild or buy a new wheel.

ugo.santalucia

I have the feeling for that price they are built with very low quality spokes, those retailing at 10 pence each or less... which would explain such unusual failures... You cannot sell a hope hub on an open pro for 100 pounds... There must be a shortcut somewhere. Even a badly built front wheel would not fail that way

Danny87

http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/w ... n-pro.html

Seen them here for about £100 they are factory built by Hope themselves at there factory in Barnoldswick.

ugo.santalucia

Danny87 wrote:

http://www.merlincycles.com/bike-shop/wheels/road-wheels/factory-road-wheels/hope-hoops-pro3-rs-mono-open-pro.html

Seen them here for about £100 they are factory built by Hope themselves at there factory in Barnoldswick.

There are a few things unclear to me.
Firstly, how they can sell wheels so cheap if they have invested in a "building machine", which I can tell you is a big investment. Secondly, what's the point of investing in a building machine if you then have to do the lacing and finishing manually... so what does the machine actually do? A bit of winding up of the threads?
Finally, even purchasing Open PRO and Sapim spokes at business prices in quantity, you still can't sell a rear wheel at 170 pounds when the rear hub has a RRP of 155

Failures of Sapim spokes on a front wheel are relatively unheard of, so I am a bit suspicious to say the least

cycleclinic

Build with Sapim Race, ACI or DT SWiss Comps (double butted 2.0mm/1.8mm/2.0mm). Sapim can't be beaten on price or quality IMO. Spacyles and I sell the things for £0.45p each. I have put more miles on wheels with Sapim spokes and I am heavier and not had that problem yet.

I would find someone trust worthy to re build your wheels. That wheel must have had short cuts in it some where for that price. It's been built to stongly branded parts (hub and rim) and a price that attracts. It sells wheels I suppose.

You can tell is you have sapim spokes Sapim is stamped on them!

Danny87

Well I'm going to go speak to lbs and see if can rebuild the existing front wheel with new spokes.

Never know the existing rim may go again, but will see what he thinks.

Danny87

Took the wheel into lbs this afternoon, checked the spokes and yep they are deffinitely Sapim spokes.. The lbs was suprised was having so many issues with the wheel in question.

He also mentioned that he's not a massive fan of open pro rims, preferred the cxp33's as was stronger. Also I must point out that the 2 spokes he has previously replaced have not snapped, so Balthazar may be right in his theory the spokes have fundamentally weakened. Although as Ugo and the lbs pointed out failures with Sapim spokes rather uncommon.

Anyway lbs said they'd replace the broken spoke by tomorrow, also suggested a couple of other wheelsets. 1 of which was a ex-demo Mavic ksyrium wheelset he offered me at a decent price. The other American Victory Wheelset not sure of the price on that I didn't ask tbf.

balthazar

Danny87 wrote:

He also mentioned that he's not a massive fan of open pro rims, preferred the cxp33's as was stronger.

Flannel, if he blames the rims. This is a spoke problem caused either by faulty spokes or poor wheel building.

Unless your rim is bent (not simply untrue), worn out from braking, or otherwise damaged, it need not be replaced. At worst, the wheel should be rebuilt with new spokes, by a builder who understands stress-relieving (sadly, they are few).

onbike 1939

This all sounds very strange. Before building or buying a new wheel , best to check out the one you have. A wheel made with a Hope hub and Sapim spokes is not an inferior item. When talking of wheel-building machines keep in mind there are two types. One is used in factories making up cheap wheels and is operated by unskilled and low-paid workers. These sell wholesale for about £13 or so and I've spent hours truing and dishing these so that they could be sold.
The other wheel-building machine are of the type used by Chainreaction and are hi-tech, expensive machines. Personally I like wheels hand-built so that I am sure that they are evenly tensioned and stress-relieved.
I would suggest that your front wheel has not been properly built and if the spokes are breaking in that fashion I suspect that the tension of the spokes have been uneven. Check if the spokes are breaking at the bend. If so then uneven tension/too slack spokes are the reason. Find a decent wheel-builder and give him your wheel and be aware that a decent wheel-builder cannot be found in many, if not most bike shops.

racingcondor

At 154 lbs a 32 spoke Open Pro laced 3x (tell me it's not radial) to a Hope 3 hub with decent spokes as a front wheel should be indestructible. This -

Danny87 wrote:

He also mentioned that he's not a massive fan of open pro rims, preferred the cxp33's as was stronger.

Worries me and suggests that you need a new builder. Even a badly built wheel made this way should be lasting better than yours so I suspect something rare like a bad batch of spokes is involved. Personally I'd find someone else who builds locally and have them rebuild it with new spokes all round.

ugo.santalucia

onbike 1939 wrote:

This all sounds very strange. Before building or buying a new wheel , best to check out the one you have. A wheel made with a Hope hub and Sapim spokes is not an inferior item. When talking of wheel-building machines keep in mind there are two types. One is used in factories making up cheap wheels and is operated by unskilled and low-paid workers. These sell wholesale for about £13 or so and I've spent hours truing and dishing these so that they could be sold.
The other wheel-building machine are of the type used by Chainreaction and are hi-tech, expensive machines. Personally I like wheels hand-built so that I am sure that they are evenly tensioned and stress-relieved.
I would suggest that your front wheel has not been properly built and if the spokes are breaking in that fashion I suspect that the tension of the spokes have been uneven. Check if the spokes are breaking at the bend. If so then uneven tension/too slack spokes are the reason. Find a decent wheel-builder and give him your wheel and be aware that a decent wheel-builder cannot be found in many, if not most bike shops.

Quote it all.
I repeat it... you can't sell a properly built wheel with Open PRO, Hope PRO 3 and Sapim spokes at that price, unless someone makes a loss along the chain or corners are cut big time

onbike 1939

I have had a look at the Merlin link re wheels shown at £100. Their rear with Hope hub and Shimano sells at £175....more like the thing.

ugo.santalucia

onbike 1939 wrote:

I have had a look at the Merlin link re wheels shown at £100. Their rear with Hope hub and Shimano sells at £175....more like the thing.

I know, I was talking of the front.
A rear HOpe 3 hub has a RRP of 145, an Open PRO around 45 and Sapim spokes come at around 45-50 pence each (so around 15 quid)...my maths says that even without labour, the sum of the parts is way more than 175

racingcondor

RRP on the parts -

Hope 3 Front £60.00
Open Pro £46.50
Spokes (Sapin Race) £16 (£50 per 100)
Cost of a cheap build is around £30

ugo.santalucia

racingcondor wrote:

RRP on the parts -

Hope 3 Front £60.00
Open Pro £46.50
Spokes (Sapin Race) £16 (£50 per 100)
Cost of a cheap build is around £30

Yes, but the front retails at 100... The rear at 170... Shall I repeat it another time?
100 for the front, 170 for the rear... Maths don't add up, as you have shown

onbike 1939

Decidedly odd indeed. I'd love to know more.

Danny87

Lol poor Ugo I hate having to repeat myself too. Patience is a virtue.

As for the lbs, sorry I should of made it clearer, he was not saying the rims in my case are to blame. He was merely stating that he prefers to build with alternative rims to open pros. He fully acknowledged that they are a popular rim and that many people like them.

He has replaced the broken spoke and loosened all the spokes off then retensioned the existing spokes etc. I don't want to state which lbs I've been dealing with incase anyone takes a negative view from all this.

The lbs has been great tbf, not sold me any excuses and have genuinely tried to help me every time I've visited. Even if it means pointing me in the direction of somewhere else if they have not sold what I required. Just to point out also I did not buy the wheel set originally from them. I know some places are a little clueless sometimes, but this chap is very approachable, knowledgable and has a local succesful racing background that I knew of before talking to him.

racingcondor

Ugo - Sorry, should have made it clear. I was agreeing with you.

Danny - Hope it works out this time. As said though that wheel should have lasted 10,000 miles + with no problems (i.e. until you wore out the brake tracks). Something is very odd but as this thread shows there's only so much the web can provide answers to. I'd love to have put the wheel on the stand and had a look at the tensions (as I suspect Ugo would).

Danny87

Thanks racingcondor and everybody else here who has offered help & advice greatly appreciated! Hopefully no more problems with these wheels I hope or should I prey!?

On another note bought a set of Ksyrium elites the said mentioned ones earlier in this thread! Will see how I go with those.

ugo.santalucia

Danny87 wrote:

Thanks racingcondor and everybody else here who has offered help & advice greatly appreciated! Hopefully no more problems with these wheels I hope or should I prey!?

On another note bought a set of Ksyrium elites the said mentioned ones earlier in this thread! Will see how I go with those.

That's the problem with bike shops, you get in with a 10 pounds repair in mind and you exit 400 pounds poorer...