tiagra cassette wont fit my ultegra hub

fuzzdog
fuzzdog Posts: 196
edited June 2012 in Workshop
Hi.
i have just bought a tigara 12-30 cassette to put on my ultegra 6600 hub. I thought that would be fine but it wont go on. Why is that?
It fits over the first few mm but wont slide back onto the hub fully. I have aligned the groves correctly as far as I can see.
I had thought that all shimano road cassettes were compatable with other shimano components. Can anyone shed any light on why this is or if I am doing something silly.
I bought it from Evans yesterday and I have damaged the box a bit in my excitement to get it on the bike and head for the hills so I am worried they wont exchange it if it turns out to be no good. So if anyone wants to make me an offer should all advice fail and exchange impossible then I will give you a good deal.
Thanks.

Comments

  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    sounds like your body is 10spd only while the tiagra is 8/9/10spd fitting.

    10spd only have higher splines. than the normal 8/9/10spd
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • schweiz
    schweiz Posts: 1,644
    what nicklaus is saying about 10 speed only freehubs is true but I've put both Ultegra and 105 9 speed cassettes onto a 6600 hub and I could be wrong, but I only recall Dura Ace 7700 having that freehub as it was the first 10 speed Shimano system.

    Make sure the sprockets are square to the hub as they go on, they are designed to be a close fit on the hub so if you offer the sprockets up to the freehub at even a slight angle they won't go on.
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    as Schweiz says your body should be 8/9/10spd compatible.

    maybe some gentle persuasion is needed.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    Thanks for the replies guys.
    I wish I had the wheel here with me but I'm at work. But It seemed like the body of the hub was wider than the holes in the sprockets. and the plastic mount that they were held together with seemed much narrower than the hub. The Hub I have is slimmer just at the end , maybe the last 5or 6 mm. The spockets go on that bit but no further. I know about aligniing the groves. I had no problem getting the old one back on when I was checking.
    Im a bit mystified. Im no expert but never thought it would be a problem at all.
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    I forgot to say that the cassette is a ten speed 12-30. and I have been using the hub with a 10 speed ultegra cassette previously. If that helps at all. I think the 6600 is 8,9 or 10 speed compatible isn't it?
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    have a look at the big cog end on both cassettes and you will easily see if there is a difference. and a quick depth of spline examination will show up and big difference.

    if you still have issues post up some pics.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    I may be missing something here but if its a Shimano 8/9/10 speed hub and a Shimano 8/9/10 speed fitting cassette surley the only way it can be physically wrong is in the overall depth (i.e the dimension the cogs take up when stacked together) not in internal diameter .

    An 8 speed differs from a 9 speed differs from a 10 speed in the fact that the cogs are a different distance apart and this is controlled by spacers of the appropriate speed.

    Even if you had an 8 speed freehub an a 10 speed cassette it would still slide on?
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • schweiz
    schweiz Posts: 1,644
    yes, theoretically, all Shimano 8/9/10 speed cassettes/freehubs should all work apart from the case of 7700 Dura Ace which apparently (I say that as I have no practical experience with 7700) is 10 speed specific and has higher splines!
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    Oh well. I will have another look at it tonight and see what I can do.
    Thanks. I will let you know.
  • tonye_n
    tonye_n Posts: 832
    If it is factory spec 6600 rear wheel (as opposed to hand built for which the hubs are different), then the 6600 hub is definitely 10spd only.... Wh-600,wh-6600,wh-6600g. All 10spd only.

    That's why you don't need a spacer ring when you use 10spd cassettes on these hubs.
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    Hello tonye
    Yes. it is a factory built wheel ( ultegra 6600)
    I checked it again yesterday and the groves are a different thickness.
    but the tiagra is a 10speed cassette. I would have thought it would fit but obviously it won't.
    which makes me wonder if I exchange it for soething else if that will have the same problem.
  • tonye_n
    tonye_n Posts: 832
    fuzzdog wrote:
    Hello tonye
    Yes. it is a factory built wheel ( ultegra 6600)
    I checked it again yesterday and the groves are a different thickness.
    but the tiagra is a 10speed cassette. I would have thought it would fit but obviously it won't.
    which makes me wonder if I exchange it for soething else if that will have the same problem.

    So your cassette is CS-4600 12-30 ?

    It may be that the cassette body just wont cope with the 12-30 range cassette.
    However I have the ultegra 6600g (grey version came out with ultegra SL range), and I am currently running the latest 105 cassette on it without issues (CS-5700 12-27). You need to remember that you do not use a spacer with this particular hub body. Most other 10spd compatible hubs will require a spacer... But not this one.
  • mister p
    mister p Posts: 405
    schweiz wrote:
    yes, theoretically, all Shimano 8/9/10 speed cassettes/freehubs should all work apart from the case of 7700 Dura Ace which apparently (I say that as I have no practical experience with 7700) is 10 speed specific and has higher splines!

    7700 was 9 speed and would accept the Tiagra cassette. 7800 was the first 10 speed Dura Ace.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,301
    It will not fit, it is a Shimano-shamble, they should warn customers that Tiagra 10 speed is different from other ten speed cassettes. It is supposed to go on 8-9-10 speed freehubs and not on the more modern 10 speed only freehubs.
    The spacer issue and the subsequent introduction of 10 speed only freehub were a mistake and Shimano should correct the issue instead of making it worse.
    Return and refund if you can, otherwise sell it
    left the forum March 2023
  • schweiz
    schweiz Posts: 1,644
    mister p wrote:
    schweiz wrote:
    yes, theoretically, all Shimano 8/9/10 speed cassettes/freehubs should all work apart from the case of 7700 Dura Ace which apparently (I say that as I have no practical experience with 7700) is 10 speed specific and has higher splines!

    7700 was 9 speed and would accept the Tiagra cassette. 7800 was the first 10 speed Dura Ace.

    You're right, sorry if I caused any confusion for anyone.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    It will not fit, it is a Shimano-shamble, they should warn customers that Tiagra 10 speed is different from other ten speed cassettes. It is supposed to go on 8-9-10 speed freehubs and not on the more modern 10 speed only freehubs.
    The spacer issue and the subsequent introduction of 10 speed only freehub were a mistake and Shimano should correct the issue instead of making it worse.
    Return and refund if you can, otherwise sell it

    It is a compatibility issue.

    Ultegra 6600 is 10sp-only, will only take a 105, Ultegra or DA 10sp cassette

    To fit these cassettes to a 8/9/10sp hub you need a spacer.

    But the Tiagra 10sp doesn't need a spacer, will only fit a 8/9/10sp hub, doesn't fit a 10sp-onlt hub

    It's not a matter of a more modern hub - 6600 is not modern, it's from 5 or 8 or something years ago, when Shimano produced a few higher-end wheels which were 10sp-only, like DA7800 and Ultegra 6600
    - modern Shimano hubs like 6700 or 7850 or 7900's went back to being 8/9/10sp

    I can only imagine Shimano got so many complaints and queries about 10sp cassettes on 8/9/10sp hubs needing the spacer, that when they made 10sp Tiagra they ditched it
    - perhaps they thought if you had these more expensive wheels you wouldn't be fitting a cheap-end cassette
    (like I do !)
  • fuzzdog
    fuzzdog Posts: 196
    Thanks Andy for your comprehensive answer. I think that just about rounds it up.
    I took the cassette back to Evans today and they were happy to give me a refund despite the damaged box, so good on them.
    In regard to what you say about fitting a low end cassette onto more expensive wheels. I can only say that at the present moment we are not all in a position to spend big money on bike parts. Im not really sure quite how much of a difference having a Tiagra cassette on my bike instead of an Ultegra one would really make. Assuming you could get one to fit. Also I'm not aware of any of the three higher end Shimano cassettes having a 30 tooth sprocket. Anyway I will now get myself a 105 12-28 instead. I have been climbing the steeper Surrey hills on a 23 up until now so a 28 should come as blessed relief and maybe 30 was more than required anyway.
    Thanks to all for your help.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    fuzzdog wrote:
    In regard to what you say about fitting a low end cassette onto more expensive wheels. I can only say that at the present moment we are not all in a position to spend big money on bike parts. Im not really sure quite how much of a difference having a Tiagra cassette on my bike instead of an Ultegra one would really make.

    I agree with you absolutely.
    My 'best bike' is Ultegra throughout, but with 105 cassette, and when I need a new one it'll be Tiagra
    My Winter bike and TT bike are 9sp, with HG50 Tiagra cassettes.
    They shift perfectly fine : higher-spec cassettes seem an expensive way of saving a few grams.
  • Bobsum
    Bobsum Posts: 1
    I've just come up against this problem as well (also with the 12-30 Tiagra). Before you buy a 105 cassette, as far as I read your problem, the tiagra wouldnt go past the higher splines on the freehub. Cassettes should not need any force to install (other than when tightening the lockring).
    It is more likely that the "ultegra" hub you have has an older dura ace 7800 (ultegra 6600) freehub body. This was a change that shimano made to the splines (only for this range) to prevent the cassette digging into the lighter aluminium body. I don't think the higher splines are compatible with any of today's shimano cassettes.
    IMO You have a couple of options;- change the freehub body (there are a range of different models), change the wheel/hub, or get an appropriate ultegra cassette (but they only go to 12-28 at the moment).
    The later dura ace/ultegra hubs reverted to the normal shimano spline pattern due to material upgrades so became fully compatible.
    I think a standard 105 cassette will give you the same issues. Sheldon Brown gives an explanation at this address:
    http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html

    Hope this helps. Good luck.
  • arlowood
    arlowood Posts: 2,561
    FWIW, I had no problems replacing an Ultegra 11-28 cassette with a Tiagra CS4600 12-30 cassette - firstly on the Bontrager Race Lite wheels that were supplied with my Trek Madone. Then onto a set of handbuilts (courtesy of ugo.santalucia - great wheels BTW) using Novatec hubs.

    I can only assume that in both cases the hubs were 8/9/10 speed compatible rather than the 10spd-only that seems to have created the problem for the OP

    I have no problems aesthetically running a Tiagra cassette on an otherwise Dura Acer/Ultegra drivetrain. The weight difference is only a shade over 100g and the Tiagra is half the price of an Ultegra cassette.

    IMO the benefits outweigh the negatives
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Bobsum, he's already said he has an Ultegra 6600 hub, so yes it is 10-speed-only, as described on Sheldon.

    As explained above, you can fit 10sp 105, Ultegra or DA cassettes to this, all are compatible with the higher splines and narrower freehub body - but not 10sp Tiagra : Shimano have seen fit to make 10sp Tiagra suitable for 8/9/10sp hubs with no spacer, but they won't fit 10sp-only hubs.

    SRAM cassettes won't fit either

    The description on Sheldon is correct, but is a bit out of date as he unfortunately died