How do you know when a Wheel rim is too worn?

Will Nunez
Will Nunez Posts: 203
edited March 2012 in Workshop
Was cleaning the bike this weekend and noticed the front wheel rim was considerably worn compared to rear which you would expect. Got me thinking, Id rather not discover its limits by wheel failure, is there anything I can do to determine when its end of life for the rim.
Current Stock:
Carrera Vanquish '08
Orbea Onix T105 '11
Carrera Fury '07
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Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    If you think it's too worn, it's probably too worn... in the absence of rim wear indicators, assume that a deep concave section is a bad sign. It can fail at any stage and it can be dangerous
    Many wheels can be re-rimmed by your LBS... in the case of budget wheels that's normally not worth the hassle

    WHich wheels are you talking about?
    left the forum March 2023
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Should have gone to Sheldon Brown first ;-)



    "Many modern rims have a small pit in each sidewall to indicate a safe wear limit. When the pits disappear, the rim should be replaced."
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Thanks for the reply Ugo

    WHR 500 Shimano. Done 12000 miles Mostly 12 mile commutes
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Will Nunez wrote:
    Thanks for the reply Ugo

    WHR 500 Shimano. Done 12000 miles Mostly 12 mile commutes


    A that mileage, including wet miles... they are probably getting to the end of the road. Not worth risking... as for the wheels per se, too cheap to even consider a re-rim... £ 45 for a new front wheel
    left the forum March 2023
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    After 12000 miles they owe you nothing, and even if you could source a replacement rim it would be false economy.
  • andrew_s
    andrew_s Posts: 2,511
    Measure the rim wall thickness with an appropriate gauge
    If it's under 1mm, replace. Failure is at about 0.7mm
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Cheers Andrew.

    Think I may use this as a business case to upgrade Aksiums on the Orbea, and put the Aksiums on the Vanquish (they only have 5000 miles on them).

    Now to start the geekery on what to replace the Aksiums with!!
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Will Nunez wrote:
    Cheers Andrew.

    Think I may use this as a business case to upgrade Aksiums on the Orbea, and put the Aksiums on the Vanquish (they only have 5000 miles on them).

    Now to start the geekery on what to replace the Aksiums with!!

    Handbuilts... it's a no brainer, to get a decent set of light, stiff, responsive wheels you need to spend at least £ 350-400 for Ksyrium Elite. With handbuilts you can get much better for that money (or the same for less).
    Only wheelset which is value for money is PX model B, a very decent wheelset for the price tag
    left the forum March 2023
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Wow at that price tag no business case.

    The WHR500 have never needed truing other than when i bounced off a pedestrian (their fault). replaced bearings and cones at 8000. They have never let me down, no broken spokes, etc. I know alot of pople slate them. Can i expect the same from planet X model B for commute all weather abuse?
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Will Nunez wrote:
    Wow at that price tag no business case.

    The WHR500 have never needed truing other than when i bounced off a pedestrian (their fault). replaced bearings and cones at 8000. They have never let me down, no broken spokes, etc. I know alot of pople slate them. Can i expect the same from planet X model B for commute all weather abuse?

    No, PX model B are not for commuting... they are a light wheelset with few spokes, aimed to the sportive/MAMIL market... they are good quality for the price, but not a heavy duty wheelset.
    PM me if you like a chat
    left the forum March 2023
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    What about model C? Says more spokes for durability? The bike with the WHRs is my vanquish which is the winter/bad weather/commute hack. I use the orbea/aksiums for commuting too but try to use it in good weather, the orbea is the weekend mamil mount. Or would I be better moving aksiums to vanquish, and using planet x B on Orbea?
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Will Nunez wrote:
    What about model C? Says more spokes for durability? The bike with the WHRs is my vanquish which is the winter/bad weather/commute hack. I use the orbea/aksiums for commuting too but try to use it in good weather, the orbea is the weekend mamil mount. Or would I be better moving aksiums to vanquish, and using planet x B on Orbea?

    That's more like it... Aksium have very tough rims/spokes... the hubs are prone to failure where the spoke is inserted, but that has nothing to do with the type of use (unless it's extreme), it's a problem of metal fatigue/failure.
    PX model B are the only cheap wheelset which is light and reasonably well built. I would avoid them if you are a heavy rider though...

    Model C are like a handbuilt, pretty conventional solid stuff... at that price is difficult to get handbuilts... not sure how good the rims are... to get down to that price one has to cut corners somewhere
    left the forum March 2023
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Not a heavy rider (150-155 LBS). I commute light with a rucksack monday am friday pm. So mid week commutes are more like sprints on sh!tty roads. So am guessing that isnt really hammering the wheels in teh way it would if i was constantly loaded with saddle bags etc
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • Yossie
    Yossie Posts: 2,600
    I must admit that although many people rate Aksiums, I hate them with a passion - I've had two sets fail at the hub interface after relatively low commuting/training mileage (both times replaced no worries at all by CRC) and so downgraded the Kyseriums I had on the good bike to commuter/trainer wheels and put carbon tubs on the good bike. The latest rear I have is sitting in a box in the workshop with something wrong with it that I can't be bothered to find out what so it can just sit there and rot for all I care.

    I can't fault the Kyseriums: after 5 1/2 years (first 3 were race only mileage, last 2 1/2 have been every day in all weathers across my daily commute that covers clean roads, mud ridden country lanes, cobbles and a coastal cycle track that is covered in sand and sea water) they have been perfect - never gone out of true, needed one cone nip up (2 minute job) and still roll nicely. Rims are all ok re braking surface as well.

    I run Vittoria Zaffiro slicks on them so don't know if the heavy tyre takes a lot of the impact away form the rim protecting it.

    Although you can pick up matt black stealth Aksiums at CRC at the mo' for £120 ish (which is a bargain), I would still recommend going the Kyserium route. But that's just me.

    Re handbuilt - if the numbers work, that's an option worth thinking about - personally I've never done it so I can't comment.
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Which Ksyriums yosser? Looking at specs there is a difference in spec and price betwee the equipe and elite
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • Yossie
    Yossie Posts: 2,600
    Base level ones - let me nip down to the workshop in a second and I'll confirm. £300ish the pair? Look cool as well, which means 2 moph more top end.

    For all I have said above, the matt black Aksiums look well smart as well - shame they fall apart, but there you go .....
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Yossie wrote:
    I must admit that although many people rate Aksiums, I hate them with a passion - I've had two sets fail at the hub interface after relatively low commuting/training mileage (both times replaced no worries at all by CRC) and so downgraded the Kyseriums I had on the good bike to commuter/trainer wheels and put carbon tubs on the good bike. The latest rear I have is sitting in a box in the workshop with something wrong with it that I can't be bothered to find out what so it can just sit there and rot for all I care.
    .

    The hub failure is pretty common, I have seen it in a pair of Ksyrium Equipe as well, they are built with the same concept
    left the forum March 2023
  • Yossie
    Yossie Posts: 2,600
    They be Elites.

    Re Ugo - yup agree - the hubs seem to the same set up, but I've never had any issues with the Kyseriums as opposed to the Aksiums, and I've never heard of a Kyserium hub snapping issue (although I'm not saying that it would never happen).

    Difference in build qualities/materials between wheels higher up/lower down in the manufacturers range perhaps?

    I've also had a number of spokes go in Aksiums, whereas (touch wood) nothing on the Kyseriums.
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    Ive never had a spoke go ever [cue one to go on way home] in over 16000 miles (11K on WHR 5K on aksiums). Other than the WHR500 post crash strue, they have never seen a spoke spanner. Is that just luck?
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    Yossie wrote:
    They be Elites.

    Re Ugo - yup agree - the hubs seem to the same set up, but I've never had any issues with the Kyseriums as opposed to the Aksiums, and I've never heard of a Kyserium hub snapping issue (although I'm not saying that it would never happen).

    Difference in build qualities/materials between wheels higher up/lower down in the manufacturers range perhaps?

    I've also had a number of spokes go in Aksiums, whereas (touch wood) nothing on the Kyseriums.

    Friend of mine, his hub collapsed the day before the RVV last year... the alloy guide where the spoke sits split opened... we had to rush in a bike shop in Oudenaarde to find a replacement as the wheel could not be ridden. It was a Ksyrium Equipe, fairly old, so it wasn't bad manufacturing... just fatigue. Not saying they are bad wheels by any mean... just something worth considering before purchase.
    left the forum March 2023
  • Yossie
    Yossie Posts: 2,600
    Yossie wrote:
    They be Elites.

    Re Ugo - yup agree - the hubs seem to the same set up, but I've never had any issues with the Kyseriums as opposed to the Aksiums, and I've never heard of a Kyserium hub snapping issue (although I'm not saying that it would never happen).

    Difference in build qualities/materials between wheels higher up/lower down in the manufacturers range perhaps?

    I've also had a number of spokes go in Aksiums, whereas (touch wood) nothing on the Kyseriums.

    Friend of mine, his hub collapsed the day before the RVV last year... the alloy guide where the spoke sits split opened... we had to rush in a bike shop in Oudenaarde to find a replacement as the wheel could not be ridden. It was a Ksyrium Equipe, fairly old, so it wasn't bad manufacturing... just fatigue. Not saying they are bad wheels by any mean... just something worth considering before purchase.

    Yup - exactly the same as the Aksiums failures I had.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    I expect all of them to fail in that way if one keeps them long enough... most people will never experience the problem as they get rid of them before 10K miles or they never do the 15-20 K miles necessary for the problem to appear.
    A fatigue related failure is a very predictable failure and it will always happen, given enough cycles (mileage).
    Simply the hubs are not designed to last forever...
    left the forum March 2023
  • kippy
    kippy Posts: 26
    Hi there,

    Well as a seller and user of Mavic I am very pro the mavic wheel concept, i appreciate there were some issues with some hubs a few years ago but that has been rectified over the last couple of years.

    I personally have not had a problem but a few customers did, and it was only a few. Each got a replacement wheel FOC from mavic.

    The big plus from my point of view being workshop manager is that the sealed bearings in all mavic's hubs is by far the best advantage over cones/balls. And this advantage far outweighs standard cones/balls type hubs also.

    I have just binned a pair of 13 year old cosmics that have done a staggering 50'000 mile on the same bearings and cassette body so you can see why i'm a fan. :)

    Also worth mentioning that the Mavic MP3 program which once you have purchased your wheels and filled in the short online registration plus paid a small percentage payment covers your wheels for anything for 2 years this includes total failure even if you run into a massive pot hole and write them off.

    Kip :)
  • Yossie
    Yossie Posts: 2,600
    Then again, why are we bothering talking about all this tat?

    Obermayers. Preferably IIIs. That's what you need. And dump all that other junk in next door's garden.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    kippy wrote:
    Hi there,

    Well as a seller and user of Mavic I am very pro the mavic wheel concept, i appreciate there were some issues with some hubs a few years ago but that has been rectified over the last couple of years.

    I personally have not had a problem but a few customers did, and it was only a few. Each got a replacement wheel FOC from mavic.

    The big plus from my point of view being workshop manager is that the sealed bearings in all mavic's hubs is by far the best advantage over cones/balls. And this advantage far outweighs standard cones/balls type hubs also.

    I have just binned a pair of 13 year old cosmics that have done a staggering 50'000 mile on the same bearings and cassette body so you can see why i'm a fan. :)

    Also worth mentioning that the Mavic MP3 program which once you have purchased your wheels and filled in the short online registration plus paid a small percentage payment covers your wheels for anything for 2 years this includes total failure even if you run into a massive pot hole and write them off.

    Kip :)

    Resolved? How, if the hubs use the same concept?
    As for sealed bearings, most manufacturers use sealed bearings, novatec, which makes hubs for many makes above all... DT, Hope among others...in fact only campagnolo and shimano do not...
    The insurance, well most people will not bother, same as they bother not on their washing machine or laptop... Not sure is a selling point
    left the forum March 2023
  • kippy
    kippy Posts: 26
    Resolved by completely changing how the hub is designed/made. Including alloy type used

    Indeed other brands do use sealed bearings but i'll tell you honestly that DT & Easton for example wheel bearings do not last a fractin that mavic do, i'm definately not saying they are perfect but i can only go on the dozens we sell each month and have hardly any issues.

    The MP3 is a great idea though and if you buy a pair of £1500 wheels its a small price to pay for peace of mind if complete replacement is available. :)
  • fossyant
    fossyant Posts: 2,549
    Mavic bearings are fantastic. The issue with some hubs is the design of the hub and the spoke pattern. Radial spoking places great stress on the flange, unless there is design modifications. To be honest, if commuting, I would go for hand built wheels, and then learn how to rebuild wheels. I wear out rims in 18 months of commuting in suburbs/city, and this isn't London. Lots of grit, and I wash rims and bike after wet rides.

    I now replace my own rims. Had a rear blow out last year, a quarter of the rim ripped off on a roundabout, no warning, although I knew they were worn. I usually get a bent rim that tells me to replace, this exploded.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,337
    kippy wrote:
    Resolved by completely changing how the hub is designed/made. Including alloy type used

    Indeed other brands do use sealed bearings but i'll tell you honestly that DT & Easton for example wheel bearings do not last a fractin that mavic do, i'm definitely not saying they are perfect but i can only go on the dozens we sell each month and have hardly any issues.

    The MP3 is a great idea though and if you buy a pair of £1500 wheels its a small price to pay for peace of mind if complete replacement is available. :)

    So at DT they are stupid? They charge more for their lower quality bearings? I have postivie experience with both Mavic and DT bearings, so I can't comment

    Are you saying that I walk into your shop with a wheel bent at 90 degrees and I walk out with a replacement, or you are saying that you collect the wheel, send it to Mavic and then I come 3 weeks later to collect my replacement? In the latter case, I am still short of a wheel for the sportive on the following sunday...
    Also, if I dive in a massive hole, as you say, the council will pay for the damage, it has happened before in our club... it takes weeks, but so do replacement parts, often.
    If I buy a £ 1500 set of wheels (I'm not that type of person), how much does it cost me to insure them against "whatever happens"?

    I have just had a look at the Mavic 2012 range on their website... the hubs of the Ksyriums have been totally redesigned and much to my astonishment now the drive side of the rear wheel is built radial... of course they have their reasons to do something which is against common sense, I suppose stiffness has been rated more important than durability (or safety, for what that matters).
    The Aksiums still have a similar design... not exactly the same... I trust the problem has been solved (internet is littered of photos of hubs failing in exactly the way described above, so it's not just a few cases).
    The R-Sys wheels with their silly compressed carbon spokes are still on the catalogue... a friend of mine has them... he has already experienced three spokes explosions (they do go with a bang, it's quite entertaining)... each spoke costs around £ 20 + labour... is it really a good idea, mr Mavic? What's the benefit for the average cyclist?
    left the forum March 2023
  • kippy
    kippy Posts: 26
    I'm just voicing my own opinions chap. Forums are about everyones options are they not?

    Nowhere did i say DT and the likes were stupid, we sell both and sell scott bikes too which often use DT wheels from experience they just dont seem to last as long.

    Yes the wheel will have to be returned to mavic but shouldn't take 3 weeks, you would possibly borrow another wheel from another bike if you have one rather than buy another till the replacement/repaired wheel arrives. We if possible even try to find something we could loan you but not all shops would do that.

    Most councils will only pay out if the hole has already been reported too. This sadly is very common arond Sheffield.

    The MP3 program costs around 8% of the total wheel cost which i think is pretty good.

    I guess when there are thousands of products sold there are always going to be some returs percentage, no product is perfect

    There is no such thing as the average cyclist though is there? we all whatever level we are at want the best most reliable products out there me included :)
  • Will Nunez
    Will Nunez Posts: 203
    hehe. In the midst of such knowledgeable people. I am going to make the statements of a complete philstine.

    The WHR500 on my vanquish are on borrowed time by the looks of it although I am taking a guage to them tonight to confirm. Spending a lot of money on the vanquish wont happen, its my hack, it even has mudguards. With the Aksiums at 5000 miles im guessing these will do as a replacement. I use the Aksiums on the same commute, just not in the worst weather (ice and grit), and they have been reliable. So guessing for the vanquish this will improve the ride (less rolling resistance, and I think stiffer (can never figure out of the orbea is stiffer because of the frame or the wheels - but guessing you guys would know).

    So that then leaves the question of what to do with the orbea. I could go for the Planet X model Bs, as they are in the right price range, but its been suggested they are light and fast but not necessarily ideal for the commute.
    I could stay with Aksiums, a known quantity at £170
    I could go for the Ksyriums Equipe as an upgrade but struggle to see what im getting for the extra £130 over the Aksiums, Other than saving half a pound in weight.
    I could go Fulcrum 5 to stay on par with aksium or Fulcrum 3 to be on par with Equipe.

    Or of course I could go handbuild. Bet even then what do a choose, more spokes for commute, less spokes and bladed for weekend fun?
    So seems to me if I want more of the same

    Aksium/Fulcrum 5

    If I want to save weight and use for fun plan X mod B

    If I want to upgrade Fulcum 3/Ksyrium equipe or handmade either for commute ro sunday blasts (but should decide which as this will dictate Spoke count and type.


    Is that right?
    Current Stock:
    Carrera Vanquish '08
    Orbea Onix T105 '11
    Carrera Fury '07