Are all CF frames created equal?

BeauMaximus

From searching other threads similar to this I know there has been some discussion but there doesnt seeem to be a consensus. Some said the deRosa is same frame as a ribble, some said hand made italian bike frames are just same as entry level big brands. Some disagree and some say who cares, pay for the brand you like.

I am looking at up grading to a carbon frame and have one of these bikes in mind.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cicli-di- ... =3&theater
(If you go left from this image there are more pics of a nice green a black one)

They are a belgian brand with a long history over there but new to UK.
Frameset with integrated seatpost is £1299.
Complete build with Full Ultegra compact groupset, fizik arione saddle, Ritchey wcs bars and stem, fulcrum racing 1 wheels with schwalbe ultremo zx tyres and ceramic cups in BB in lieu of shimano = £2850.

The dealer says there IS a LOT of difference between carbon frames and was told this is how it is;
All carbon frames are made in just a couple of far east factories, most at carbontec in china.
Each company develops and owns the mould for each of their models.

First there are the big brands which buy advertising by running teams on the pro tour.
This is expensive and while they do develop good frames, they also have to sell a shit load of basic frames with nice branded paint job at a high mark up to pay for said advertising.

Then there are the smaller companies (Like Thompson) who develop good quality frames, build their reputation slowly on quality rather than advertising. They can afford to sell quality frames at a competitive price as they dont have the overhead of running a pro team. When i mention the canyon a friend has just brought, says they are good and a direct competitor in europe, and also fall into this bracket.

Then he says there are those that do not develop their own frames, just buy generic frames, brand them and build up to a price point. Ribble were an example.

Below that, were companies that sell poor quality frames, high on resin low on carbon fibre and these often break easily. Kuota, he said were patchy.

I know he would paint this picture with his bikes in the best value category so thats why im posting this.
Firstly, is this picture of the market generally accurate in your opinion.

Secondly, assuming that is a correct market picture and the thompson capella is a good quality frame, is that build spec good value?
It seems good to me, but if i was sure i wouldnt be asking you.

If its rubbish, and all carbon frames are much of a muchness, then I will just buy a cheap one that looks nice and put nice kit on it.

Thanks for reading such a long post but best part of 3k is a lot of money to spend and I dont want to **** it up.

cyclingsheep

I hope your over view is right as I have 2k worth of Ribble frame and kit arriving in the next day or two. Can't wait

ShutUpLegs

cyclingsheep wrote:

I hope your over view is right as I have 2k worth of Ribble frame and kit arriving in the next day or two. Can't wait

I don't think he was endorsing the Ribble :?:

greasedscotsman

I doubt very much you will get an unbiased view on this from anyone on this forum. Why not test the bike your interested in, if you like it, buy it. Maybe test it against a few others, there are so many good bike shops out there that will let you do a proper test, why not make your own mind up?

jordan_217

1. I just spent £500 on eBay on a dengfu/carbon zone special. It's exactly the same as a De Rosa (just without the fancy decals and spray job)

2. I just spent £2k on a De Rosa frame. It was made using a high grade carbon, exclusively for De Rosa.

N.B- I just used De Rosa and the aforementioned eBay traders as examples!!!

alihisgreat

Not all frames are created equal because different production techniques can be used, different grades of carbon can be use, different quality control etc. etc.


unfortunately the consumer has little to no information when it comes to comparing a chinese OEM frame vs a ribble vs a De rosa.


so anything that anyone says is just a guess.

smidsy

The only thing you can be sure of is that all frames are not equal.

Finding out which order they rank in is never going to be easy (if at all possible).

But echo Alihisgreat - there are definitely different quality carbons and different build techniques.

cyclingsheep

While I'm aware they were not ranked the highest of the CF list they also were not the worst. I was just stating that I was happy where my purchase was falling in the category not that I was necessarily getting the very best frame money can buy.

Monty Dog

My counter-point is that why would small 'brands' want to go to the effort of getting something unique made in a facility that is designed to produce volume? This means the small company has tied up capital in stock - orders need to be placed about 6 months in advance - with no certainty about selling it. This is a seriously expensive business model, and for a brand with limited profile and cash, extremely risky. Far easier to call-off a generic design in quantities you can afford and simply get them painted as needed.

petenats

As you would expect most high end manufacturers all say their individual combination of fibres and resin is the best.

I know that although Cevelo manufacture most of their frames in the far east the exact spec, engineering design and quality control is closely monitored by them.

They just cannot afford to produce the same product for that price otherwise...according to them!

This link gives some more info about the tech side of things for those interested.

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/engineering/tech-presentations/

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/news-blog/article/the-myth-of-modulus/2939/

And no I don't work for or sell Cervelo's! I just recently bought one so was interested in what I was spending my hard earned cash on!!!

I also remember reading an article in either Cycle Active or Plus a month or two ago where Giant's carbon guru was interviewed. He was very clear that despite most cf coming from the same couple of manufacturers the end products were very different!

PeteN

cyclingsheep

As someone has already posted I think, unless you actually work in these factories we only have the producers themselves giving us their jargon filled reasons why their frame is the best/stiffest/most unique frame in the market. This goes for Cervelo, Giant or Trek just to name a few mentioned above. I believe there are a few companies that genuinely produce 'custom' carbon frames which would actually be unique but I couldn't afford one of those. If it fits you and you like the look and ride of it does it really matter in the end so long as it doesn't fall apart beneath you?

ugo.santalucia

Unfortunately carbon fibres (not the composite) come in very different batches, with extremely different properties. Unlike steel, where if you buy SLX or Nemo or 531 you know what you get and the properties are reproducible, this is not the case for carbon, where the supply chain is a lot more "hit and miss".
On top of that, the manufacturing process to make the composite and make the frame also plays a role in determining the quality of the final product. Unfortunately carbon frames have very little defect tolerance, which is the reason so many are faulty (in the steel era a faulty frame was unheard of) and need replacement within warranty.

I guess the advise is to go for a brand that has a reputation for good customer service, as you might need it

t4tomo

BeauMaximus wrote:

I am looking at up grading to a carbon frame and have one of these bikes in mind.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cicli-di- ... =3&theater
(If you go left from this image there are more pics of a nice green a black one)

They are a belgian brand with a long history over there but new to UK.
Frameset with integrated seatpost is £1299.
Complete build with Full Ultegra compact groupset, fizik arione saddle, Ritchey wcs bars and stem, fulcrum racing 1 wheels with schwalbe ultremo zx tyres and ceramic cups in BB in lieu of shimano = £2850.

Whilst I can stretch to a new carbon road bike (well I could but it would end in divorce / castration or both) Who is the dealer and do they do any Thompson team kit?
It would be nice to have some personalised gear, it literally has my name on it

kingrollo

Some companies design there own CF Frame - and then that mould is exclusive to them. Other companies will just buy a batch of frames from a generic mould then paint it with there own designs - nothing wrong with either - and the cost comparison is now very little, Planet X do there own carbon frame for £300 - which isn't much more than the likes of carbonzone via ebay.

I place quite a big emphasis on a how a bike looks - if it wows me - I am likley to ride it more. I remember when I brought my alu pinarello - a few people said I was bonkers, because Ribble, Giant, could offer the same spec much cheaper - but it mattered to me, so I paid the extra.

ugo.santalucia

kingrollo wrote:

Some companies design there own CF Frame - and then that mould is exclusive to them. Other companies will just buy a batch of frames from a generic mould then paint it with there own designs - nothing wrong with either - and the cost comparison is now very little, Planet X do there own carbon frame for £300 - which isn't much more than the likes of carbonzone via ebay.

I place quite a big emphasis on a how a bike looks - if it wows me - I am likley to ride it more. I remember when I brought my alu pinarello - a few people said I was bonkers, because Ribble, Giant, could offer the same spec much cheaper - but it mattered to me, so I paid the extra.

If only everyone was as honest as you are... yes, looks are by far the most important feature in a bike... you wouldn't go out with an ugly girl, so why would you go out with an ugly bike?

navrig

It all depends what helmet you are wearing (if indeed you wear a helmet - but that's another thread).

With my cycnical helmet on I wouldn't believe a word of what Colnago, Cervello or Giant say, they have to say something along those lines otherwise people would stop buying their products.

With my consumer lid on I'd believe every word of the hype including the myth that if I buy a Trek whatsitsname I could ride like Lance.

As it is I have shopped with my pragmatic helmet on which led me to believe that there is an element of truth in both camps. Sure there MAY be differentiators between cheap unbranded Chinese CF frames and the Specialised S-Works and that I may feel good about myself and my performance when sat on a more expensive (sexy?) frame but my common sense heart said "can't afford one of them". So I ride two Ribbles, the 7005 Winter Audax and the Gran Fondo. That's my middle ground.

Everyone has their own middle ground, try and stick to it. If you don't you'll regret it either because you spend all your time looking at the erotica you wish you had bought or you'll end up selling something for a massive loss because you couldn't afford it in the first place.

t4tomo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If only everyone was as honest as you are... yes, looks are by far the most important feature in a bike... you wouldn't go out with an ugly girl, so why would you go out with an ugly bike?

Challenge: If all (or some if you have questionable morals) of the following applied:
- you didn't have another bike to ride,
- you'd heard this bike's bike perormance was awesome,
- none of your mates were around to see you taking it out of the garage

then I'm pretty sure you'd take the ugly bike out for a test ride.

Monty Dog

Don't bring Specialized into this - they don't make anything!
With the exception of Giant and Merida, I doubt you could buy any CF frame for less than £1500 that was actually made by the company whose name is on the downtube?

ajb72

Luckily for me I own a Wilier and they make the best carbon frames. I know this because the frame has things like 'high modulus' and '46 Ton' painted all over it, so it must be the best. Now I'm going to cover my eyes and ears so no-one can tell me it's the same as a Ribble!!

navrig

ajb72 wrote:

Luckily for me I own a Wilier and they make the best carbon frames. I know this because the frame has things like 'high modulus' and '46 Ton' painted all over it, so it must be the best. Now I'm going to cover my eyes and ears so no-one can tell me it's the same as a Ribble!!

My RIBBLE Gran Fondo has the Italian flag on it. So that makes it Italian? :roll:

ajb72

Navrig wrote:

ajb72 wrote:

Luckily for me I own a Wilier and they make the best carbon frames. I know this because the frame has things like 'high modulus' and '46 Ton' painted all over it, so it must be the best. Now I'm going to cover my eyes and ears so no-one can tell me it's the same as a Ribble!!

My RIBBLE Gran Fondo has the Italian flag on it. So that makes it Italian? :roll:

I think you perhaps missed the tongue in cheek nature of my post.

navrig

ajb72 wrote:

Navrig wrote:

ajb72 wrote:

Luckily for me I own a Wilier and they make the best carbon frames. I know this because the frame has things like 'high modulus' and '46 Ton' painted all over it, so it must be the best. Now I'm going to cover my eyes and ears so no-one can tell me it's the same as a Ribble!!

My RIBBLE Gran Fondo has the Italian flag on it. So that makes it Italian? :roll:

I think you perhaps missed the tongue in cheek nature of my post.

I didn't actually but you may have missed the toungue in cheek which went with my rolling eyes

I took your comment in the good humour it was intended but cannot resist the opportunity have a joust when it appears.

ajb72

Good stuff. I actually really like the Ribble GF. I had the Ribble Sportive when I was getting back into the sport and it served me very well, the GF is a better looking beast though!

compositepro

what does 46 ton mean....lol

rake

something to do with the strength of the fibres, can hold 46 ton.

FransJacques

Why really cares about perceived quality? Carbon frames & fork are all over the place for 15 years now and none of them are catastophically failing. Otherwise we'd be talking about it. Maybe it's a good thing they're only made in a few factories by people who know what they're doing.

These posts are usually started by guys who are spending not much money on a frame and, right before they pull the trigger, wonder if what they're getting really is too good to be true. They want to test as many opinions as they can to look for closure on their purchase. The ideal scenarios is a post from a guy who has a Dogma2 or C59 and tells them the FengXi F28 for £400 is just as good so go get it. That's what they want.

Sorry, but you'll never get a non-biased opinion from anyone on a forum. You'll never get closure so just buy what you can afford and ride the snot out of it.

MichaelW

Time knit their own carbon fibre frames from fibre rather than prepreg, which is quite rare.

FransJacques

If you believe Giant they do the same thing. Pix on their site show spools of carbon thread. Do we believe them? Who knows? I have 3 Giant frames: road, track and CX and love them all so they're doing something right.

dakkar

Are Carbon Frames just one crash away from complete destruction, or are they able to withstand a fall? I know if I crash my steel frame its not going to smash into bits and if it does break it can be repaired. Am I right in thinking that for all the hype, expense, stiffness and shortage of grams, carbon doesn't have those properties, or going back to the original post are some frames more equal than others?

I read an article in the comic a couple of weeks ago interviewing a guy from Trek who stated with his frames there was no reason they shouldn't last a lifetime and carbon doesn't have a shelf life.

desweller

Aluminium and steel racing frames are coke-can thin in places. They're not as strong in a crash as people like to believe.

I wouldn't have expected CFRP to be any worsh. The strongest crash structures I've ever seen in motor racing have been built from carbon fibre.

Zoomer37

dakkar wrote:

Are Carbon Frames just one crash away from complete destruction, or are they able to withstand a fall? I know if I crash my steel frame its not going to smash into bits and if it does break it can be repaired. Am I right in thinking that for all the hype, expense, stiffness and shortage of grams, carbon doesn't have those properties, or going back to the original post are some frames more equal than others?

I read an article in the comic a couple of weeks ago interviewing a guy from Trek who stated with his frames there was no reason they shouldn't last a lifetime and carbon doesn't have a shelf life.

Yeah. Also every time you go over 32mph with a carbon frame the wind strips a micro layer off the frame. So basically if you ride over 32mph say around 122 times in under 12 months the bike will turn into dust.