More doping chat.

rick_chasey

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... rt-network

Article asking why runners are suddenly all breaking records this year.

Only at the bottom do they discuss doping.

Interesting moment under the line:

Hi all

Thank you for the feedback. I will do my best to respond to questions, but many of them have already been discussed over at the original article on the Science of Sport website (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/11 ... t-and.html), particularly the doping question raised by a few of you.

Very briefly, if doping is in play (which it must be, given the history of sport), then there are some difficult questions to answer. First, why is the current surge coming from Kenya only? If CERA is the "culprit", then the improvement will happen across the board, not only in one country. And let me point out that the critical difference between cycling and running is the structure of the sport for the athlete.

That is, cycling is set up as a team sport, where running is not. The cycling environment lent itself to the creation of organized doping, because a) the riders were with their team-mates and doctors pretty much year round in a very tight, controllable unit, and b) the competition within the team meant that managers had "leverage" to enforce doping.

Numerous books have made the point that the doping systems that each team set up were done to ensure the safety of the riders from rampant drug use, as I'm sure you're aware. The point is that the recipe was perfect - the culture existed, then you had young riders, earning salaries, competing for teams who employed doctors. The strength and control over the system that is required to successfully run a doping operation is extra-ordinary - look at all the leaks and what the reveal about how to hide the practice. It's incredibly complex, and only possible when you have one or two people pulling the strings, in my opinion.

Running, as I see it, is quite different. There are camps, certainly, and some athletes train together, but generally it's much more unregulated, wide open. I do have my suspicions about the agents, and in particular an Italian medical doctor who has become an agent to many of the athletes.

But I have difficulty believing that these athletes, a tiny subset of the population, are being given access to drugs that the rest of the world are not seeing. If it's CERA, then we know that the Italians had it. And thus the Americans will see it, the Ethiopians will see it. It cannot explain the last four years.

That drug, whatever it may be, has clearly not impacted on cycling (which has more money and a better chance to get the drug, given the network of doctors within the sport) because cycling performances are getting slower. It hasn't affected the Ethiopians, most of whom are represented by the same agents as the Kenyans. So yes, the possibility exists that an as yet undetectable drug is out there, but I find it hard to believe that it's only being used by some athletes in Kenya. Who is controlling it? And if it's multiple people, then why only Kenya?

Cycling for example did not have a miracle drug, it just had EPO, and varying degrees of subterfuge and detection avoidance. Athletics had its undetectable drugs, yes, as Jones showed, but that was such a small pocket. I just can't see how 19 out of 19 this year can be the result of doping when the training environments are so different, the geography is so challenging (these athletes are in training camps which are isolated and often lack electricity).

That's not to say that doping isn't involved, I'm skeptical, I have to be honest. But I do wonder how the effect can be explained on such a large scale in so narrow a population? I guess some will say this proves doping, but to me, it challenges it, because again, to be that specific, it has to be limited to a single point of origin, but then why only Kenya?

And a final point, there's a great deal of really good research being done in East Africa at the moment - I know the researchers, because we're trying to set up a collaboration to go to Kenya next year, and a few of my colleagues have already been. And there is nothing to suggest any kind of doping that affects the blood. The parameters are all very normal, unremarkable, off-season and in-season, so how this drug works beats me if it's not affecting the blood (which is of course how EPO and blood doping would work). Time will tell of course, and yes, I'm almost certain that doping is involved. It would be naive not to, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut.

Just to respond to donroberto:

Yes, I would rule out shoes, because the technology in the shoe hasn't changed over the decade that I analyzed for this article. Certainly, if we go back to the 1960s, perhaps, but what was worn at the 2002 New York Marathon is basically the same. And while those shoes may look the same in the photo, I can assure you that the adidas-sponsored athletes are not in Nikes! Though you would think that they would do everything possible to avoid the confusion of being similar colours!

Ross Tucker (The Science of Sport)

I don't buy his arguments - do you?

shockedsoshocked

According to a friend who is a GB standard runner, "there is no doping in athletics".

markwb79

He really does have his head in the sand if he thinks a main reason for doping is because they train as a team!

TheBigBean

So, an athlete today is much faster than an athlete on EPO ten years ago? The reason for this is increased competition. I suppose it depends how effective EPO is for a marathon.

shockedsoshocked

TheBigBean wrote:

I suppose it depends how effective EPO is for a marathon.

Err, very?

speshsteve

Don't know why he has focussed on the Marathon the advances in 100m is arguably more dramatic since a certain Usain Bolt.

I think globalisation is the answer where differences in the gene pool are placing some athletes at a clear physiological advantage. Go back 100 years and you had to be upper class public schooled, oxford or cambridge to have the time, money to compete now theres a global commercially driven pool of talent out there.

Whats this got to do with cycling...search me

RichN95.

The article asks why Kenya runners have started dominating the marathon in th last couple of years. The SIS theory is that the top talent has turned their back on the track to purpose greater riches on the road. The alternative theory is that it's all down to drugs.

Both are credible theories but each would have a different effect on Kenya track racing at 5k and 10k. With event migration Kenyan performance would have deteriorated, with doping it would remain at the same level or improve.

So what happened? At the last two Worlds Kenyan men in the 5 and 10k managed just one bronze medal. Very substandard. Therefore, this supports SIS's hypothesis.

This is not to say there's no doping, just that the improvements in the marathon are due to other factors.

Essentially post Beijing Kenyans dropped the track for more money on the road. Bradley Wiggins on national scale.

cajun_cyclist

RichN95 wrote:

The article asks why Kenya runners have started dominating the marathon in th last couple of years. The SIS theory is that the top talent has turned their back on the track to purpose greater riches on the road. The alternative theory is that it's all down to drugs.

Both are credible theories but each would have a different effect on Kenya track racing at 5k and 10k. With event migration Kenyan performance would have deteriorated, with doping it would remain at the same level or improve.

So what happened? At the last two Worlds Kenyan men in the 5 and 10k managed just one bronze medal. Very substandard. Therefore, this supports SIS's hypothesis.

This is not to say there's no doping, just that the improvements in the marathon are due to other factors.

Essentially post Beijing Kenyans dropped the track for more money on the road. Bradley Wiggins on national scale.

The Kenyans have been dominant for the last few decades really? Haven't they with Kip Keino.

And the historians pinpoint the Riff valley as the place so many of the good runners came from, both from Kenya and Ethiopia.

But I agree with the article that a lot of runners have thought that runners from "less developed nations" have a lot less of a hassle posed by drug testing.

As a side note, I've done some reading on the history of track and field, athletics, there use to be a runner from Wales cerca 1980 I believe, he held the marathon or mile or kilometer record, something like that, I know they've had others from a very long time ago as well.

moray_gub

The guy you are refering to was Setve Jones from Wales at one time in the early 80s he held the Marathon record 2 hrs 8 mins odds.

cajun_cyclist

Moray Gub wrote:

The guy you are refering to was Steve Jones from Wales at one time in the early 80s he held the Marathon record 2 hrs 8 mins odds.

Thank you! That's a big help. For awhile I was checking out all those records.

eh

I think the article is probably about right, although I would have thought more emphasis could be put on the fact that traditionally coaches got athletes to concentrate on the track in their early and mid career and then move to the marathon later on. The kenyans that are winning now are specalising in the marathon from the beginning of their career, at that must have a major impact. That plus the the money benefits of marathons over track and the effect of a Kenyan 'critical mass' of marathon talent not disimilar from BC in track cycling or AIS prior to that. Scary thing is AIS and BC owe a debt to the work the East Germans did and we know they were far from clean.

I don't agree with his reply on drugs mind, cycling was never only about EPO there was a huge cocktail of drugs in use e.g HGH, steroids, and we know these were also in use in athletics, for example see the Balco case, from their own website:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/05 ... drugs.html

TheBigBean

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I suppose it depends how effective EPO is for a marathon.

Err, very?

Well, we've found out recently that EPO can save about 4/5 mins on a climb up Alp d'Huez, so it is fairly tricky to compete against that. Next time someone rides up in 37 mins there will be a lot of alarm bells.

My question is how much impact does it have on a marathon. If it is only worth around 2 mins then I can believe that other factors over a couple of hours can have a greater impact and times can become quicker. If it is worth 15 mins, then I find any time close to an EPO era time completely unbelievable.

shinyhelmut

Markwb79 wrote:

He really does have his head in the sand if he thinks a main reason for doping is because they train as a team!

I don't think Ross Tucker has his head in the sand regarding doping, it is a regular topic on his blog http://www.sportsscientists.com/ and he is better informed than your average blogger/journalist.

As for how effective EPO is for marathon running I'd expect it to be very effective, although I haven't tried it myself :?

Monty Dog

If you go back to the original 'studies' regarding EPO and blood-boosting at CONI in Italy with Ceccini, Ferrari et al, they were working with all manner of sportspeople, not just cyclists. If you go back to the early 1990s, the Italian were one of the lead nations for distance runners, now they barely figure. To say that blood-boosting or hormone-therapy wouldn't work for distance runners is like saying that because football is a 'skill game' it doesn't work their either :roll:

No_Ta_Doctor

Monty Dog wrote:

If you go back to the original 'studies' regarding EPO and blood-boosting at CONI in Italy with Ceccini, Ferrari et al, they were working with all manner of sportspeople, not just cyclists. If you go back to the early 1990s, the Italian were one of the lead nations for distance runners, now they barely figure. To say that blood-boosting or hormone-therapy wouldn't work for distance runners is like saying that because football is a 'skill game' it doesn't work their either :roll:

I don't think anyone has said that though, have they?

The specific questions he posed were:
1) Why recent improvements in the world record
2) Why recent Kenyan dominance?

If you read the article and the following debate all the way through you'll see that he examines the possibility that it's down to drugs and deals with it fairly convincingly.

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

TheBigBean

No tA Doctor wrote:

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

That is an interesting point.

Also, note that the world record in 1988 was 2.06.50 and by the time LA had retired it was 2.04.55 (the current record is 2.03.38), so even when cyclists were powering up mountains minutes quicker, the marathon record was not changing that dramatically i.e. for all the research into nutrition, training, red blood cells etc I would have expected a larger improvement.

ddraver

No tA Doctor wrote:

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

Sorry, that sent my inner red skeptic flag right up - There are a whole host of things that will limit marathon performance, becasue EPO does not have an effect on heat transfer, it does not follow that it is therefore useless. It is effective for any form of endurance sport because it boosts the amount of oxygen supplied to the muscles (any and all muscles).

Take an extreme example, a moderatly fit 17st guy like me will not break the world record even ifg I have the most effective heat transfer in the world because there are so many other factors holding me back - too much beer and frites for just the one!

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

That is an interesting point.

Also, note that the world record in 1988 was 2.06.50 and by the time LA had retired it was 2.04.55 (the current record is 2.03.38), so even when cyclists were powering up mountains minutes quicker, the marathon record was not changing that dramatically i.e. for all the research into nutrition, training, red blood cells etc I would have expected a larger improvement.

Perhaps there wasn't enough money in systematic doping in marathon running untill now? > I'm not professing to know.

When I hear a team is suddenly beating records that have been around for a while, with some margin, my cynical and honed doping alarm is set off.

I refuse to buy the 'doping can't help that much' argument, especially in an endurance sport.

shinyhelmut

I'm inclined to think there must be doping in top level athletics, the question is why are the Kenyans so dominant. If there is some new "wonder drug" then why does no other nation have access to it? I don't think of Kenya as being at the forefront of physiological/biochemical research.

rick_chasey

Could it not be the Kenyan runners get more funding to support that kind of thing?

Long distance running matters to them.

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

That is an interesting point.

Also, note that the world record in 1988 was 2.06.50 and by the time LA had retired it was 2.04.55 (the current record is 2.03.38), so even when cyclists were powering up mountains minutes quicker, the marathon record was not changing that dramatically i.e. for all the research into nutrition, training, red blood cells etc I would have expected a larger improvement.

Perhaps there wasn't enough money in systematic doping in marathon running untill now? > I'm not professing to know.

When I hear a team is suddenly beating records that have been around for a while, with some margin, my cynical and honed doping alarm is set off.

I refuse to buy the 'doping can't help that much' argument, especially in an endurance sport.

Well one of the points the article was making is that the Kenyan's arent actually a team. They don't train together, have different agents and by and large run as individuals. So it's not so much a question of "is there doping in marathon running?" as "why Kenyans?". It seems unlikely that the Kenyan's have some wonder drug that nobody else has access to and their set-up doesn't look like it would create a "team-doping" environment.

No_Ta_Doctor

ddraver wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Incidentally, one question regarding how effective EPO use would be in a marathon hasn't had a lot of coverage here - though Ross brings it up - one of the limits to marathon performance is heat transfer, the ability of a runner to maintain a body temperature effective for running. As far as I know EPO doesn't have an effect on this.

Sorry, that sent my inner red skeptic flag right up - There are a whole host of things that will limit marathon performance, becasue EPO does not have an effect on heat transfer, it does not follow that it is therefore useless. It is effective for any form of endurance sport because it boosts the amount of oxygen supplied to the muscles (any and all muscles).

Take an extreme example, a moderatly fit 17st guy like me will not break the world record even ifg I have the most effective heat transfer in the world because there are so many other factors holding me back - too much beer and frites for just the one!

That's the point though - heat transfer is one of many limiting factors. Even if you could run under 2 hours for a marathon if you were suitably cooled the fact that you can't get rid of the body heat fast enough would place a limit on your time - before oxygen transfer became an issue.

I'm sure EPO can help plenty of marathon runners but it's possible that at the ultra elite level it isn't oxygen that's holding them back.

I don't know the ins and outs of it, I don't follow marathon running, but it has a least a degree of plausibility.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Could it not be the Kenyan runners get more funding to support that kind of thing?

Long distance running matters to them.

It's possible. But if they suddenly got a load of drugs, why has their performance at 5000 and 10000m not improved in the same way and appears to have gone backwards.

ddraver

No tA Doctor wrote:

That's the point though - heat transfer is one of many limiting factors. Even if you could run under 2 hours for a marathon if you were suitably cooled the fact that you can't get rid of the body heat fast enough would place a limit on your time - before oxygen transfer became an issue.

I'm sure EPO can help plenty of marathon runners but it's possible that at the ultra elite level it isn't oxygen that's holding them back.

I don't know the ins and outs of it, I don't follow marathon running, but it has a least a degree of plausibility.

I'd be surprised if the times for marathons are quicker in colder climes than more average climes....

The same principle would apply to cyclists though really...

moray_gub

Monty Dog wrote:

If you go back to the original 'studies' regarding EPO and blood-boosting at CONI in Italy with Ceccini, Ferrari et al, they were working with all manner of sportspeople, not just cyclists. If you go back to the early 1990s, the Italian were one of the lead nations for distance runners, now they barely figure. To say that blood-boosting or hormone-therapy wouldn't work for distance runners is like saying that because football is a 'skill game' it doesn't work their either :roll:

I dont know if you can read anything into that after all the UK men used to be one of the lead nations for distance running but until recently Mo Farah apart (and he is somalian) hardly figured.

Doobz

From Wada on the state of Doping..

"We are catching the dopey dopers, but not the sophisticated ones."

http://news.yahoo.com/wada-chief-says-m ... 04982.html

No_Ta_Doctor

ddraver wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

That's the point though - heat transfer is one of many limiting factors. Even if you could run under 2 hours for a marathon if you were suitably cooled the fact that you can't get rid of the body heat fast enough would place a limit on your time - before oxygen transfer became an issue.

I'm sure EPO can help plenty of marathon runners but it's possible that at the ultra elite level it isn't oxygen that's holding them back.

I don't know the ins and outs of it, I don't follow marathon running, but it has a least a degree of plausibility.

I'd be surprised if the times for marathons are quicker in colder climes than more average climes....

The same principle would apply to cyclists though really...

Well you keep cool(er) on a bike because of the air flow past you. Not so much on a mountain though....

Doobz

No suspension For Jeannie Longo..