Shimano Going up to 11 - New Frames Needed

symo
symo Posts: 1,743
edited October 2011 in Road buying advice
As shimano are looking to move all the ranges (I know DA Di2 initially) with a wider spaced freehub; does this mean I am going to have to replace all my lovely bikes with new frames to keep on the shimano upgrade path?

Do we really need 10 gears? The people I see with 11 campy gears don't seem to be getting any advantages
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Comments

  • APIII
    APIII Posts: 2,010
    I thought the advantages of 11 speed were obvious. It has one more gear than 10 speed, no?
  • turnerjohn
    turnerjohn Posts: 1,069
    dont think Campag did ? they just reduce the spacing between cogs and make the chains slightly narrower....knowing Shimano their also change the pull ratio on the mechs so NOTHING will be compatible :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
  • Bozman
    Bozman Posts: 2,518
    Will 11 be better than 9?
    "Apparently" you shouldn't use the extremes due to crossover/chain alignment, 53-25/39-11 etc, so doesn't that give you 16 possible ratios rather than 20 with 10 speed anyway.
  • I'd jump at the chance of a 11 speed 11-28.
  • de_sisti
    de_sisti Posts: 1,283
    symo wrote:
    As shimano are looking to move all the ranges (I know DA Di2 initially) with a wider spaced freehub; does this mean I am going to have to replace all my lovely bikes with new frames to keep on the shimano upgrade path?

    Unless someone is forcing you to do so, then as far as I'm aware, you don't have to.

    Easy, innit. :wink:
  • Well considering I've got 1/2 an inch of spacers on the non drive side of my current hubs, there's plenty of space for a new freehub, it will just require a new hub and a slightly deeper dish to the rear wheel at the worst.
  • Giraffoto
    Giraffoto Posts: 2,078
    I wouldn't upgrade to it, but it wouldn't put me off a new bike. It could be handy with a single chainring set-up - 36 front and 11-34 at the back would get you up most hills and down the other side, and with narrower gaps between ratios
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  • hopper1
    hopper1 Posts: 4,389
    Bozman wrote:
    Will 11 be better than 9?
    "Apparently" you shouldn't use the extremes due to crossover/chain alignment, 53-25/39-11 etc, so doesn't that give you 16 possible ratios rather than 20 with 10 speed anyway.

    So, you'd have 18 options with the new 11 speed :wink:
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  • markos1963
    markos1963 Posts: 3,724
    Well considering I've got 1/2 an inch of spacers on the non drive side of my current hubs, there's plenty of space for a new freehub, it will just require a new hub and a slightly deeper dish to the rear wheel at the worst.


    The dish will have to be concave to do this! :shock:
  • moonshine
    moonshine Posts: 1,021
    if campag can fit 11 spd on a 130mm spaded hub, so can shimano. There is no way they are going to drive a change in industry standard 130mm spaced read road frames.

    That being said, i'll stick with 10 spd. there is no reason to go to 11, except vanity. drive chain parts will be thinner, more expensive and wear faster.
  • moonshine wrote:
    there is no reason to go to 11, except vanity. drive chain parts will be thinner, more expensive and wear faster.

    Really? The 11-speed Record chain is extremely tough and I've yet to see any credible report that says it wears out more quickly than other chains or that it's weaker.

    I now have Athena and Super Record 11-speeds and I love using them. For the latter I chose a 12/27 so I have a get out of jail option for any nasty gradients.

    As for vanity - not sure how that works? Does that mean Di2 users are vain too?
  • Bozman
    Bozman Posts: 2,518
    The point i was making earlier was that i have a bike with nine speed ultegra and it has no crossover problems at all so i get all 18 ratios, i have one 10 speed with issues and one without(apparently lucky).
    Why the hell do they bother with 11 when you probably get as many usable gears on a 9 speed set-up
  • RedJohn
    RedJohn Posts: 272
    I find a 12-23 10x cassette covers all the riding I do comfortably enough. I don't see that adding a gear either side of that will help.
  • Bozman wrote:
    Why the hell do they bother with 11 when you probably get as many usable gears on a 9 speed set-up

    I'm sure I'm correct in thinking that Campagnolo have designed Super Record's front derailleur so that you get zero crossover no matter where you are front and rear. Shimano will no doubt bring out the same for Dura Ace.
  • ajb72
    ajb72 Posts: 1,178
    RedJohn wrote:
    I find a 12-23 10x cassette covers all the riding I do comfortably enough. I don't see that adding a gear either side of that will help.

    I think the point of 11 speed is not to add a gear at either end of the ratio, rather to fill in a gap in the middle. It helps to spin a comfortable gear rather than having a bigger step up.

    I don't see the fuss myself. No-one forces you to change but if you are thinking of changing why not have an extra gear? If some of the logic here applied we'd all still be on 5/6/7/8 speed blocks etc.
  • moonshine
    moonshine Posts: 1,021
    the point is there are marginal gains (if any) to having 11sp over 10sp. it is a spinal tap mentality that 11 is better than 10 because..... it goes to 11.
    11sp won't make it any faster or make hills any easier, all it can possibly offer is a different set of ratios with slightly smaller gaps than currently available.
    most 10sp blocks are straight though at the bottom end of the block and jumps only come in 2 tooth gaps at top end, e.g 12-25 (12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,25) or 11-23 (11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23).
    11 speed will add nothing to the mix that can't be met with current 10sp ratios and I don't find 2 tooth jumps at the larger cogs an issue.
  • ajb72
    ajb72 Posts: 1,178
    moonshine wrote:
    the point is there are marginal gains (if any) to having 11sp over 10sp. it is a spinal tap mentality that 11 is better than 10 because..... it goes to 11.
    11sp won't make it any faster or make hills any easier, all it can possibly offer is a different set of ratios with slightly smaller gaps than currently available.
    most 10sp blocks are straight though at the bottom end of the block and jumps only come in 2 tooth gaps at top end, e.g 12-25 (12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,25) or 11-23 (11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23).
    11 speed will add nothing to the mix that can't be met with current 10sp ratios and I don't find 2 tooth jumps at the larger cogs an issue.

    Agreed, I just don't see why some folk seem to take offence at the change! None of us need these developments, but eventually they become the norm and we'll wonder what the fuss was about. Campagnolo will hopefully stop writing '11' on all the gear though as it will no longer be a USP!
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Shimano have a patent that covers up to something like 14 sprockets on the rear - they use an extended / dished carrier which overlaps the driveside spokes. As others have said, there is no evidence to suggest that Campagnolo's 11 speed drivetrain is any weaker than 10 speed. For those that need to know why, from a technology perspective it's called redundant obsolescence and the desire to create an upgrade path.
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  • RedJohn
    RedJohn Posts: 272
    ajb72 wrote:
    RedJohn wrote:
    I find a 12-23 10x cassette covers all the riding I do comfortably enough. I don't see that adding a gear either side of that will help.

    I think the point of 11 speed is not to add a gear at either end of the ratio, rather to fill in a gap in the middle. It helps to spin a comfortable gear rather than having a bigger step up.

    I don't see the fuss myself. No-one forces you to change but if you are thinking of changing why not have an extra gear? If some of the logic here applied we'd all still be on 5/6/7/8 speed blocks etc.

    Yeah, true - but I guess that (as above) the intermediate steps are only 2-tooth at 19-21-23. I had been thinking of upgrading to 11 sp when I sat down and figured out what gears I actually use, and realised it would be a waste.

    Having said all that, the reason I went for the 12-23 was that I was forever hunting between the 17 and the 19 on a 11-23 - now I have an 18 :)

    So, if you want (for example) an 18 and an 11 and a 23, then 11sp lets you do that. So I'll mostly take it back, there can be advantages.
  • 11sp is great. you can either have a bigger/smaller extreme cogs or the same as you currently ride but the ratio's closer together so the the gear changes are smoother as you wont have such a big jump! its well worth upgrading. especially if you have 9sp. I have both 10 & 11 sp bikes and much prefer the closer ratios of the 11sp.

    Why shimano want to even consider making their 11sp wider than the current standard is beyond me! all it will do is create even more dish on the rear wheel which in turn makes the wheels more flexy C'MON SHIMANO YOUR MENT TO BE THE INDUSTRY LEADERS!!!!!
  • plowmar
    plowmar Posts: 1,032
    From article on Bike Radar the 130mm sizing is likely to remain as it will be extremely unlikely that manufacturers of frames will tool up differently depending on which system is to be used.
  • DaveMoss
    DaveMoss Posts: 236
    moonshine wrote:
    the point is there are marginal gains (if any) to having 11sp over 10sp. it is a spinal tap mentality that 11 is better than 10 because..... it goes to 11.
    11sp won't make it any faster or make hills any easier, all it can possibly offer is a different set of ratios with slightly smaller gaps than currently available.
    most 10sp blocks are straight though at the bottom end of the block and jumps only come in 2 tooth gaps at top end, e.g 12-25 (12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,25) or 11-23 (11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23).
    11 speed will add nothing to the mix that can't be met with current 10sp ratios and I don't find 2 tooth jumps at the larger cogs an issue.

    Exactly, because 21 to 23 is the same jump as 11 to 12 . i.e just under 10%.
    Rather than more sprockets, a better technical advance would be shorter links in the chain and more, smaller teeth on sprockets and chainrings, that way you could have a smaller incremental shift between the small sprockets where it matters. (i.e like the equivalent of 11, 11 1/2, 12. though it could also be like 11, 11 2/3rds 12 1/3rd ) . i suppose the problem would be the chain jumping the sprockets.
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  • billysan
    billysan Posts: 575
    Are you suggesting that shimano revive 10 pitch?