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Chiropractor or Osteopath

gasman_davegasman_dave Posts: 129
edited October 2011 in The bottom bracket
Been laid up with back and sacro-iliac pain for four weeks which seems to be on the mend. I have a couple of questions.

Anyone know the difference between chiropractors and osteopaths?

Are they worth spending the money? They can make bikefitting seem cheap.

Dave
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,182
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... nce-health

    He won the lawsuit that the chiropractic association of GB (or similar) brought against him

    [/skeptic] (sorry, one of my things)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
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  • chiropractors <-- Some of the best money I've ever spent.
  • ddraver wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/19/controversiesinscience-health

    He won the lawsuit that the chiropractic association of GB (or similar) brought against him

    [/skeptic] (sorry, one of my things)

    Guess I'm a skeptic too. Had some physiotherapy at the hospital I work at which has helped but I wasn't sure if I should give anything else a go.

    Still, if aspirin came on the market now, I'm not sure it would get a license either.

    To Roadyforever, I'm glad it worked for you. I might just see how it goes for the moment.
  • rodgers73rodgers73 Posts: 2,626
    I've had 18 months of chiropractor treatment for a painful neck. Never felt better physically, and mentally I'm much happier having got to the bottom of the cause of years of problems in my knees, lower back and neck.

    I go back once every 3 months or so now for a session and its only the last few weeks before one that I get any stiffness.

    Would definitely recommend one. I know other will say its all rubbish etc but it worked in practice for me so stuff the science.
  • + lots for chiropractic. Brilliant for me.

    Theres many different strands exist in chiro, some you feel more comfortable and get more out of than others. Its a long term relationship that you build up & you may not find the right person first time of trying.

    The trouble is in lots of instances, people expect an instant fix or start to feel worse as ingrained bad habits or issues start to shift for the better and go away complaining loudly whilst those that stick at it just quietly get on with it.
  • k-dogk-dog Posts: 1,652
    There's a lot of quackery in chiropractry - especially the ones who claim to be able to cure ear infections etc through adjusting your spine.

    Beware of them tell you you will need 14 sessions at £50 too - everyone knows you can't tell at the first appointment how long something will take - although the ones I know it always seems to take multiple appointments at high prices...
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,182
    Go to a Physio, who ll know the same techniques but also know about all the other body parts in the affected area and be able to advise on a wide range of potential treatments rather than just the one...

    They will also be professionally registered, have had a 4 year uni course (that for my sister was all year long, 9-5) and then had to go through a pretty rigourous system of levels in order to practice...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    Quite a few similarities, the differences seem to be just in terminology. Both made up in the US around the middle of the nineteenth century, both regard all problems as being due to out-of-position bones ("Subluxations" in one case, "Misalignments" in the other) which can't be detected on X-ray pictures, both have practitioners who think they can cure anything with their one method. Both will fail the test of getting a diagnosis from one practitioner and seeing if any other practitioners will agree at a statistically significant rate.

    Go to a physio - real medicine is capable of passing a double-blind clinical trial. "Alternative" medicine, by definition, isn't - if it proved efficacious and safe in clinical trials it would be conventional medicine

    Or try rhino horn - when it's skillfully applied by a qualified rhinoceros, you'll forget all about your other health issues. Let the anecdotes commence . . .
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  • Chip \'oylerChip \'oyler Posts: 2,323
    +1 for Chiropracters
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  • MattC59MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    Been laid up with back and sacro-iliac pain for four weeks which seems to be on the mend. I have a couple of questions.

    Anyone know the difference between chiropractors and osteopaths?

    Are they worth spending the money? They can make bikefitting seem cheap.

    Dave

    Osteopathic medicine is regulated by the GOsC (General Osteopathic Council) and the GMC (General Medical Council). It is I believe that it is only taught to registered physicians.

    Chiropractory is not regulated in any way, other than it's own association. (I believe that there is a GCC, Generral Chiropractory Council as well, but this isn't regulated in the same way as the GMC and GCC)

    Basically, Osteopathy works on manupulation of the structure of the body; Bones, muscles, tendons etc to aleviate mechanical problems, much as a physio does (although that is a huge generalisation so apologies to any Physios out there).

    Chiropractory works on the manipulation of the spine, to aleviate all maner of ailments. Basically, unless a Chiropractor is treating lower back pain, then it's black magic, voodoo mumbo jumbo. The NHS's view is: "There is no good evidence that spinal manipulation is an effective treatment for any other health condition."

    Osteopaths are often recommended by the NHS for certain ailments, Chiropractory is rarely recommended by the NHS.

    Bottom line........... talk to a good Physio, you know where you stand (or hunch awkwardly) then !
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
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  • AidanRAidanR Posts: 1,142
    Went to a chiropractor, and one with a good rep at that. If anything it made my back worse. Personally, I'd avoid them.

    Oh, and some of the stuff they claim is utter b*llocks. It's like homeopathy that could do harm.
    Bike lover and part-time cyclist.
  • Tom ButcherTom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    Go to an osteopath or someone trained in manual therapy. If you want manipulation physios only really learn that post graduate if they choose to so make sure they are a physio trained in that. .

    As for it being quackery - I agree some elements of osteo/chiro are - but not all of them practice or believe in those elements.

    Not sure what Matt means about Osteo only being taught to registered physicians - doctors can do a fast track course in it but it is also a 4 year stand alone degree. I would say the osteopathy degree has more relevance to lower back pain than a physio degree which is far broader and is aimed at preparing people to work as physios in the NHS - that includes neuro physio etc etc Either way I'd avoid any practioner straight out of college as however good they are they will be better for a few years experience.

    edit - should add i had SI joint problems - went to a guy who started as a massage therapist and has gradually added courses in different manual therapy as he practises. I went in after 2 weeks unable to stand straight and walked out 99% fine. Obviously depends on the problem but best £30 I ever spent. I've since seen an osteo for problems and he's been equally good if slightly more expensive !

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  • Sonny73Sonny73 Posts: 2,604
    I have some serious problems with my neck and back and I have found my chiro to be absolutely fantastic, I cannot thank her enough for what she has done for me.
    I used to go to an osteopath prior to the chiro, I only moved from one to the other out of necessity and I'd heard this particular chiro was very thorough and detailed in their approach and assessment. They were and are great, tailored my treatment plan with great care and insight and with a set target, and a view to my long term appointments eventually being once every 6 months.

    My GP has the upmost respect for my chiro and to be honest that nightmare story in the Guardian article, I'm sure we could find similar stories for physio or osteo (who do identical types of neck corrections in my experience) if we looked.
    All I would add is that you need to perhaps research/try all the disciplines to find what works for you, the main thing for me would be to find a good reputable practitioner that will be highly detailed about your individual case and set a defined target. I know people that think physio is rubbish, osteo is rubbish and chiro is rubbish. I also know people that swear by each. I think there is a case for finding what works for you.
    Hope you get it sorted ;)
  • Sonny73Sonny73 Posts: 2,604
    "Tom Butcher"As for it being quackery - I agree some elements of osteo/chiro are - but not all of them practice or believe in those elements.
    +1 my chrio is very comparable with physios and osteos in terms of focusing on the literal and structural issues, and some of the other 'heal anything' stuff mentioned above I've never heard of or related to chrio in my experience.
    Also this may help: http://www.healthcentre.org.uk/osteopat ... actor.html
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,182
    Sonny73 wrote:
    I know people that think physio is rubbish, osteo is rubbish and chiro is rubbish.

    Unfortunatly for chiropracters, we can prove that the first two work and prove that the last one does not...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • well i don't care what anybody else thinks about Chiropractors. what they did for me and then my wifey means they have my respect.

    there are some snide ones who claim all sorts but the chiro i use has never claimed any of this rubbish . what he has done though is got rid of all the aches and pains i used to get, stopped my shoulder clicking around and done my knees a power of good ., something all convential medicijne said couldn't be eased without lots of pain releif medication.

    I was sceptical when somebody suggested it the chiro spotted what was wrong and told me where it hurt before i mentioned anything. my GP is quite astounded by my progress and wants to know how i have managed to sort things. I havent told him it was a chiropractor.

    the fenmale chiro my wife uses has helped her with more mobility in her neck and less headache pain .
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  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078
    As some random idiot said further up this thread,
    Let the anecdotes commence . . .
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  • k-dogk-dog Posts: 1,652
    MattC59 wrote:

    Chiropractory works on the manipulation of the spine, to aleviate all maner of ailments. Basically, unless a Chiropractor is treating lower back pain, then it's black magic, voodoo mumbo jumbo. The NHS's view is: "There is no good evidence that spinal manipulation is an effective treatment for any other health condition."

    Unfortunately as that court case mentioned in the Guardian was about - there isn't even any evidence for their ability to treat back trouble.
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • Tom ButcherTom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    There is no evidence lots of things that physios do work really, where is the evidence for massage or electrotherapy type stuff - where is the evidence for surgeons trimming cartilage in the knee ? If you want peer reviewed evidence it is very lacking for lots of things some of which are considered mainstream medicine.

    I've never visited a chiro but if someone walks in after several weeks of pain and walks out without pain then the chiro has done something - whether it is a long term fix is another matter but how anyone can claim it is make believe is beyond me unless you think there are an awful lot of liars and fools that have been visiting them.

    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • k-dogk-dog Posts: 1,652
    Yeah, that's why there are no clinical or peer-reviewed studies in physiotherapy...

    http://www.ijtr.co.uk/

    That's how a grown up scientific profession decides what treatments work.
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • There is probably no evidence for 80 - 90% of medicine (for instance oxygen, ventilation, many common antibiotics and loads more) and how anyone discovered anaesthetics is beyond me. Remember there are a lot of rubbish trials and thus rubbish evidence which appear in "peer-reviewed journals".

    Physiotherapy has done well for me. I was amazed when I dragged my leg in for one early session and walked out again. I may still try chiropractor as there is one very close to the hospital who comes highly recommended.

    Anyone tried Pilates?
  • k-dogk-dog Posts: 1,652
    There is probably no evidence for 80 - 90% of medicine (for instance oxygen, ventilation, many common antibiotics and loads more) and how anyone discovered anaesthetics is beyond me. Remember there are a lot of rubbish trials and thus rubbish evidence which appear in "peer-reviewed journals".

    72.7% of statistics are made up on the spot?
    I'm left handed, if that matters.
  • k-dog wrote:
    There is probably no evidence for 80 - 90% of medicine (for instance oxygen, ventilation, many common antibiotics and loads more) and how anyone discovered anaesthetics is beyond me. Remember there are a lot of rubbish trials and thus rubbish evidence which appear in "peer-reviewed journals".

    72.7% of statistics are made up on the spot?

    Fair comment, well made.
  • Sciatic pain and lower back ache for 8 years on and off.

    Saw 3 separate osteos during that time.

    Saw a Physiotherapist who diagnosed me in 10 mins.

    5 treatments and stretching advise

    Result no more problems ....... ever
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,182
    There is probably no evidence for 80 - 90% of medicine (for instance oxygen, ventilation, many common antibiotics and loads more) and how anyone discovered anaesthetics is beyond me. Remember there are a lot of rubbish trials and thus rubbish evidence which appear in "peer-reviewed journals".

    Sorry Dave, but this is rubbish! What I feel you actually mean is that you don't know the evidence for 80-90% of medicine! We have clinical bodies (e.g. NICE) in the UK who evaluate each new or old drug on the evidence that it works.

    Yes there are some poor trials that sneak through but to say that there is a lot is disingenuous. Most trials are done well, if not they would nt get through the peer review process. What you do have to watch out for are the non peer reviewed studies that tend to be fast tracked to websites or worse, journalists. Unfortunatly, usually by design, these are much more open to the general public than proper journals that require absurdly expensive subscriptions. This is how practices like chiropracters, homeopathists, nutritionists, psychics etc gain some imaginary credibility in the public mind...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ProssPross Posts: 34,789
    The chiropractor does an excellent job of relieving the back spasms I get from a herniated disc. I guess there are good and bad but my experience of Clifton Chiropracters in Bristol has been excellent, they xrayed my back before doing anything although he knew the second I walked in what it was going to show. What they won't do is cure the cause in my case but they relieve the pain - they also put me on an exercise course in their own gym which was good for learning strengthening exercises but as one half hour session was as much as I pay for a months gym membership I just take what I have learned and do the work at the gym. I still get problems (I have a minor flare up at present) but far less frequently than before plus starting cycling again seems to have helped.
  • NICE (and SIGN if you are in Scotland) have scratched the surface of what we have been relying on for years. I have been a consultant in ITU and Anaesthetics for nearly 9 years and the big trials which changed the face of my practice about 10 years ago have virtually all been proved to be wrong (Insulin, Severe Sepsis, Steroids to name but a few).

    You might say it is rubbish, but I do have to know something about most things medical. I guess my cynicism about trials is a result of experience. The biggest trials are industry funded in the main which then drives up the price of the drug. Look at statins. The cheaper ones are probably just as good, but the new and expensive ones have the bigger trials behind them.

    Anyway I do take your point but this is my opinion and it isn't some peer-reviewed journal we are writing in.

    I wouldn't put nutritionists next to psychics, they are pretty important to us. I haven't yet had a psychic on my ward round!
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 25,182
    They were nt in order of anything, sorry

    I accept there are good nutritionists, but there are also cure colds by buying my particular blend on herbs and the worst - You can cure your HIV/AIDS by eating a particular type of potato!!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,939
    Been laid up with back and sacro-iliac pain for four weeks which seems to be on the mend. I have a couple of questions.

    Anyone know the difference between chiropractors and osteopaths?

    Are they worth spending the money? They can make bikefitting seem cheap.

    Dave

    neither


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