Heart Rates an all of that jazz

Rich158

davmaggs wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

There's a couple of good books on the subject if it is of interest. Heart Rate Monitors for Compleat Idiots and also books by Sally Edwards. She also posts a lot of stuff on her web site, although it can take some digging.

What makes the subject interesting to me is that you use the HRM sort of like a rev counter rather than going by how you feel during training, which is prone to all sorts of influences resulting in either under doing it or more likely over doing it on a keen day.

Ignore any age formulas and vague posters on gym walls.

I'm not sure I wholly agree with that, HR is merely an indication of how hard you were working and your bodies reaction to the load rather than how hard you're working at any given moment. There's generally a 10-20 second lag where the hr reacts to the increased load which is why power meters have become so popular amongst coaches, you get a real time indication of your output at the wheel instantaneously. I've noticed that when doing interval sessions with intervals of less than 30 secs this can be a real problem which is why I always use RPE in conjunction with my hr monitor. The holy grail would be to add a power meter into the equation, then you can see your power output at any given moment and how your body is reacting to it.

I won't even go into HR zones here, that could be a whole thread on it's own and is best left to the road section

I agree. I was a little unclear and probably should have used the analogy of a delayed rev counter rather than using the term 'sort of'. As a former runner the delay isn't such a problem.

The point is that HR training is a means of getting biological feedback as you are training rather than going on a gut feeling or sticking to set routines no matter what state you are in or what you want to achieve.

If you are a serious about workouts and prepared to train to the feedback you are getting then it is a useful tool. There is an overhead in using one and importantly a mindset so I'd save your cash if you just want to do unstructured stuff.

I agree totally, I only ever really use mine to guide the intensity of base or recovery rides to ensure I don't work too hard or to check my resting HR to check for over training. Another place I find it useful is as an indication of not being able to get my hr to rise, again another indication of overtraining. I tend to find them counterproductive at times and have backed off when i saw I was working at what I thought was an unstainable rate when my gut feel was telling me to keep going. You have to be really disciplined to overcome this and I turn off my display when racing so I'm not tempted to even look at it, I then simply use it as a data logging device so I can review my stats later

Butterd2

Paul E wrote:

I saw 211 on mine this morning during a sprint away from some lights and sustaining just under 30 on the first bit of blackheath this morning, no idea what that means, I did sprint away quite hard

It doesn't mean a thing. My Dad's resting heart rate is sometimes around 30 but that's because he's had a heart attack, my daughters goes way above 200, that's because she's 7. Heart rate is a personal thing and cannot be compared to others. (Although as pointed out recovery time is a good measure of fitness).

Personally find my HRM really useful when doing big climbs (1 hour plus). Trial and error has shown me that if I keep my rate below 155-158 then I can keep going until I reach the top if I start riding in the 160+ region then I will blow up. I guess I've found my Lactate threshold.

Rich158

Butterd2 wrote:

Paul E wrote:

I saw 211 on mine this morning during a sprint away from some lights and sustaining just under 30 on the first bit of blackheath this morning, no idea what that means, I did sprint away quite hard

It doesn't mean a thing. My Dad's resting heart rate is sometimes around 30 but that's because he's had a heart attack, my daughters goes way above 200, that's because she's 7. Heart rate is a personal thing and cannot be compared to others. (Although as pointed out recovery time is a good measure of fitness).

Personally find my HRM really useful when doing big climbs (1 hour plus). Trial and error has shown me that if I keep my rate below 155-158 then I can keep going until I reach the top if I start riding in the 160+ region then I will blow up. I guess I've found my Lactate threshold.

Sounds like you have Butterd2, or at least your upper threshold ,the maximal lactate steady state where the body is unable to deal with the build up of lactate and hydrogen ions and blood acidity increases.

Rich158

i should point out I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to all this stuff :oops:

KnightOfTheLongTights

Rich158 wrote:

i should point out I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to all this stuff :oops:

in that case, maybe you can help me out

I did a DIY lactate threshold test the other day - i.e., recording the average HR over the second 20 minutes of the hardest 40-min effort I could manage. And it came out at 176. So:

1) is this my lactate HR or do I need to adjust it a bit lower - because LHR should be the effort you can sustain for 60 mins, rather than 40?

2) Regardless of 1), let's say it is 176 - then what will my zones be if I am using the five-zone system that Suunto promote?

craker

My Max HR seems quite different on a bike and when I run.

I've tried a few times this year to get a Max HR on my bike, typically sprinting up a big hill (gradually and then going a bit mad til I blow up) because my commute seems to be in lower zone 4 when I think I'm going harder than that and really struggle to get into Zone 5. Results thus far indicate Max HR is about 10bpm down on what I have on record for last year.

I did a ten 10K running race on Sunday in muggy conditions, averaged 5.6 for the way round (which could be my THR) and is much higher than I've seen on my bike all year.

Butterd2

Rich158 wrote:

i should point out I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to all this stuff :oops:

No sh!t

Rich158

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

i should point out I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to all this stuff :oops:

in that case, maybe you can help me out

I did a DIY lactate threshold test the other day - i.e., recording the average HR over the second 20 minutes of the hardest 40-min effort I could manage. And it came out at 176. So:

1) is this my lactate HR or do I need to adjust it a bit lower - because LHR should be the effort you can sustain for 60 mins, rather than 40?

2) Regardless of 1), let's say it is 176 - then what will my zones be if I am using the five-zone system that Suunto promote?

The upper threshold is only part of the picture. The lower threshold is arguably more important as it's the point that lactic acid production starts to rise. This is important for two reasons
1 - it signifies a change in the way the body fuels intself, moving from fat burning to glycogen
2 - working just above and below this threshold you can effectively push and pull your lactic buffers upwards and fine tune the way your body deals with the production of lactic acid. Working just below this trigger the production of extra cappiliaries in the muscle to deal with a perceived onslaught of lactic acid, then working just above it forces the body to use these extra structures and build some more.

As I understand it the zones are derived from both thresholds with 1&2 sitting just below the lower threshold, 3&4 sitting between them and 5/6 sitting above the upper threshold. the only way to reliably determine the zones is via a test that looks at either you gasses or blood values over about 5 minutes of exercise.

In practice you can approximate them pretty well, the transition from 2 to 3 is the first significant increase in breathing as your body needs extra oxygen to fuel the breakdown of glycogen into energy. Zone 3 is effectively your 100 mile TT pace, or what you could hold all day. It sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on the upper threshold so have a look at where the lower threshold is and hey presto it should all fall into place, then the only issue is defining the change between 3 & 4 although you'll probably have a handle on where this lies as 4 is significantly harder to hold and pretty much your 1 hour TT pace

Maxticate

mr_si wrote:

My Max HR seems quite different on a bike and when I run.

This is normal. My heart rate for perceived effort is always much lower on a bike than it ever was for running. Finding the different aerobic/anaerobic training areas has to be done for each activity, running, swimming and cycling.

I always had lactate threshold as the pace (running) you can maintain for an hour and no more. This is what is being referred to as the lower lactate threshold just above.

Rich158

Maxticate wrote:

mr_si wrote:

My Max HR seems quite different on a bike and when I run.

This is normal. My heart rate for perceived effort is always much lower on a bike than it ever was for running. Finding the different aerobic/anaerobic training areas has to be done for each activity, running, swimming and cycling.

I always had lactate threshold as the pace (running) you can maintain for an hour and no more. This is what is being referred to as the lower lactate threshold just above.

Not so, the one hour pace is mid zone 4 or 75-85% of VO2 max depending upon the individual. The lower threshold is much lower typicall 55-60% VO2 max, what you're referring to is the maximal lactate steady state (MLSS)

Maxticate

What does 75%-85% of VO2 max translate to in %MHR? Are they directly proportional?

Rich158

Not particularly, VO2 max is an absolute value than can be measured and tested. MHR is a bit of a misnomer, what people generally refer to as MHR is generally their maximum working heart rate and not their absolute maximum and should only be taken as a guide. As an example I've been tested 3 times and returned very similar VO2 max values within 1 or 2 points of each other but have returned very different MHR's which don't even approach the highest I've hit in the final sprint at Crystal Palace. There is probably a correlation if you plot the two together but MHR is too much of a variable in my experience

As a rule of thumb the top end of zone 2 is where your breating increases slightly but you can still hold a conversation although you should have the sensation that your legs are working. In zone 4 your breathing has increased significantly and you can only speak a few words at a time. This is bloody hard to hold for an hour and takes practice, it's what I call the pain zone and where I go when I refer to climbing inside the pain box!!!! It's also the zone that reaps most rewards in terms of absolute fitness