Forum home Commuter cycling forum Commuting chat

OT - is this a human rights breach?

1235»

Posts

  • GalfinnanGalfinnan Posts: 49
    Living in Glasgow, an ethnically diverse city, has demostrated quite clearly to me that immigrants tend to stick their own group and will congregate in certain areas within the city. I think this is quite a natural human tendancy to trust your own and be wary and people from your own ethnic group will be more welcoming, offer help, and inmost cases be able to better understand you. These groups by their nature are insular and fail to integrate to any real degree. When the percentage of the population in these area's reaches the tipping point then the start to demand change. Shawlands Academy in Glasgow is an excellent example of that. Due to the high numbers of muslims in the school, pressure was exerted in various ways to effectively make the school become Muslim. I, like many others believe that faith schools in themselves are dangerous but I don't see any reason why if Scotland can allow Catholic schools then it can't allow Muslim schools. The point of this that the Shawlands situation demonstrates no desire to integrate but instead a desire to take control.

    This isn't a new thing in Glasgow either, there are area's specifically chosen by people to live in because they are predominately Catholic too and hence we have denominational and non denominational schools. The ironic thing is the kids couldn't care less. Increasingly ironically, specific Catholic chapels are experiencing an increase in attendance due to the influx of Polish people.

    I think the government plan is flawed, speaking english is no guarantee of a willingness to integrate into society, yes it may cut down on arranged marriages/thai brides etc but I don't believe it can control what is essentially human nature which is to stick to your own, it is impossible for legislation to make people integrate they can only be encouraged.
    False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness.

    Darwin
  • SimonAHSimonAH Posts: 3,730
    Agreed Galfinnan, but without being able to speak the language integration moves from hard to impossible I'd say.
    FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
    CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
    Litespeed L3 for Strava bits

    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,157
    speaking the native language is clearly a wise choice.

    My memory of being a postie and the struggle to get one asian lady to sign for letters, as she couldn't speak a word of english.

    you'd see the letter and groan...
  • davieseedaviesee Posts: 6,473
    Speaking the language of the place you live in is simply the only logical way to live. Having lived in French Canada I can confirm that while you can get by only speaking English there, if you speak French your life is a lot better as a whole. This principle applies everywhere. Including Britain.

    Re cultural divides. It is a simple fact that human beings are by nature tribal. Regardless of how anyone thinks things should be, could be, or are; people will always group with their own. There are British enclaves abroad too.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    I'll give the other side of the argument.

    You have a couple who have been married over 30 years and now that they are approaching their sixties suddenly decide that Britain is the place that they would like to live. Could it be that they now need healthcare and a pension, and would like to move to the place where it will be entirely free along with a host of other freebies?

    In terms of other posters questioning whether speaking English is good for the immigrant and or required for social harmony then a lot of work has gone into this by serious people. I suspect that a lot of the extreme right-on posters here are trolling, or at least I hope they are.

    Following the Oldham riots it was found that entire communities of people live separately and that this ultimately contributed to violence. Policies of the UK government and at the local level (along with self-segregation) actively encouraged this, in fact in many cases forced this situation along (e.g creating "community leaders" or creating competition for funding). Huge amounts of efforts are going on in the north of England to try and fix this, but it is going to take decades.

    At the same time we have people born here blowing others up, and actively seeking out overseas groups to undermine the UK state despite being born here.

    As a nation we are also importing poverty. Hundreds of millions are spent on the inner cities and every few decades big slum clearances occur or drives such as Sure start only for the country to bring in more low-skilled poor people. Employers benefit massively by paying minimum wage, whilst the costs are socialised across the rest of the working population. For example a place in a high school costs about £3,500 a year, health insurance would come in at £1,000* along with tax credits and social housing. An immigrant on £15k a year isn't covering this. In fact despite several million people coming to the UK in the last decade GDP only moved in proportion e.g they made no net contribution.

    Many other countries address this by having a points system so that high-skilled people with means come in.

    What also frightened Whitehall was that we are also importing dependence and intolerance. That is to say that many of the people coming over from very poor rural communities do not buy into race, sexual or gender equality views that the country has spent decades on promoting. The dependance comes from women in particular who are brought over through marriages who are poorly educated and unable to operate outside of their community structures so they become dependent on the state or family to get by.

    For those out in the leafy suburbs who only see the benefits of cheap labour or not in manual trades (and not subject to competition) who would like a tour of Tower Hamlets or other inner London boroughs to see what the post above is about then I am happy to take you around.



    *no figures on this, just looked at prices in Canada
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    Well said Davmaggs
  • beverickbeverick Posts: 3,461
    What pi&&ed me off was the assertion that someone in their 50's was incapable of learning a new language. I'm in my fifties, so does that mean I've to withdraw from my Spanish lessons and resign from my Spanish employer?

    As far as the initial comment's concerned, should someone residing as a citizen in any country be expected to speak a langauge recognised in that country? Yes, certainly. if not at their point of entry then within a reasonable time afterwards.

    Should they be able to do it as a condition of entry? Well that depends. If they're an economic or social migrant (ie emigrating of their own free will) then probably. If they're a refugee then almost certainly not.

    Bob
  • jamescojamesco Posts: 687
    davmaggs wrote:
    Many other countries address this by having a points system so that high-skilled people with means come in.
    Believe me, the UK already has this - my visa also cost £800 (all to HMG, not to an agency).

    The majority of immigrants to the UK come from the EU and there is nothing that can be done to restrict this, due to the right of abode. Most of the immigration policy is therefore tinkering at the margins.
  • GalfinnanGalfinnan Posts: 49
    Indeed all good points and well made.

    I do agree that speaking the language will assist in integration but really is no guarantee that it will occur. I wonder what the acceptance and attendance rate would be on free english classes for those immigrating?

    I think the insinuation is that he is coming here for the benefits it will provide as opposed because he misses his wife. I have to admit if I had the opportunity to move somewhere where I would be cared for in my old age to a high standard as opposed to the potential conditions elsewhere I would jump at the chance whether or not I felt entitled to it. How can anyone be surprised that if you present this opportunity to people that they would snap it up?
    False facts are highly injurious to the progress of science, for they often endure long; but false views, if supported by some evidence, do little harm, for every one takes a salutary pleasure in proving their falseness.

    Darwin
  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    jamesco wrote:
    The majority of immigrants to the UK come from the EU and there is nothing that can be done to restrict this, due to the right of abode. Most of the immigration policy is therefore tinkering at the margins.

    That is actually incorrect. The majority of immigrants come in from outside of the EU, it is just we are allowed to talk about eastern Europeans and they get coverage on the BBC so we have the impression that they are the bulk of the people.

    Figures here on the Guardian

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... statistics
  • jamescojamesco Posts: 687
    davmaggs wrote:
    jamesco wrote:
    The majority of immigrants to the UK come from the EU and there is nothing that can be done to restrict this, due to the right of abode. Most of the immigration policy is therefore tinkering at the margins.

    That is actually incorrect. The majority of immigrants come in from outside of the EU, it is just we are allowed to talk about eastern Europeans and they get coverage on the BBC so we have the impression that they are the bulk of the people.

    Figures here on the Guardian

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... statistics
    Great link, and you might be right, but it's ambiguous. The Guardian article states:

    In the year to June 2010 India was the most common country of birth for UK residents born outside the UK, and Polish was the most common non-British nationality

    Clearly Poland and India are both non-British nationalities, so which is the most common? Are they counting all the residents who have arrived in earlier years? This would give a large aggregate number for India, but not reflect the recent arrival of central & eastern Europeans. Also, are they not counting the Poles as residents? Certainly a lot haven't bothered to fill in the forms to formalise the entry, which isn't an option for non-EU migrants.

    The data linked to in the article shows for 2009 that 567,000 migrants entered. 198,000 from the EU and 101,000 from the Indian sub-continent.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    I don't think being able to speak English is the only solution to solving immigration and social and cultural integration. It is however, a start and begins to set a minimum standard/expectation.

    Being able to speak the native language, if you want and expect to live in said Country, is hardly asking much. After all, there is no benefit (for all parties) gained living in a Country and not being able to speak or understand the language.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Keith1983Keith1983 Posts: 575
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    But therein resides the truth. And I don't see anything wrong with it.

    If I went to a Muslim Country not only would I have to learn their ways I would have to adopt or respect their practices. You go to Thailand you have to leave your shoes outside and living there you would just get further speaking the language.

    In fact in no other Country around the World is it that you can just ignore the practices, language and social norms of your newly adopted Country.

    This isn't about being ethical political correctness or human rights. It's about Britain's oversensitive need to accommodate everyone at the expense of itself.

    It started when they tried to take the black sheep out of Baa Baa <insert appropriate colour derivative> sheep.

    It ends with the liberals being oh so sensitive to ethnicity that their actions actually do more to insult than integrate.

    Just started to work my way through this fascinating thread! Hear hear that man! As for whoever suggested it was for H&S reasons, that is complete pish. Where I work we do an english understanding test and if you don't pass you can't work here. That is for H&S reasons!
  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    EU residents need to get an N.I number to work so HMG has some idea on the numbers. In terms of the Guardian link, the article does muddle things up, but the spreadsheet has the numbers.

    567,000 migrants entered. 198,000 from the EU therefore non-EU equals 369,000. There are some sub-categories of Europe so that number might change downwards and I'll leave that to the forum's mathematicians. In short every 4 years a million people need housing, healthcare and infrastructure.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,285
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    In fact in no other Country around the World is it that you can just ignore the practices, language and social norms of your newly adopted Country.

    Spain?
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    In fact in no other Country around the World is it that you can just ignore the practices, language and social norms of your newly adopted Country.

    Spain?

    Holland. For the first 10 years my dad lived there he didn't speak a word of Dutch. Big ex-pat community and lots of people willing to speak English.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    In fact in no other Country around the World is it that you can just ignore the practices, language and social norms of your newly adopted Country.

    Spain?
    Really!? I thought they were still moving recovering from a very right-wing regime.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • MonkeyMonsterMonkeyMonster Posts: 4,628
    notsoblue wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    In fact in no other Country around the World is it that you can just ignore the practices, language and social norms of your newly adopted Country.

    Spain?

    Holland. For the first 10 years my dad lived there he didn't speak a word of Dutch. Big ex-pat community and lots of people willing to speak English.

    But what about practices and social norms?
    Le Cannon [98 Cannondale M400] [FCN: 8]
    The Mad Monkey [2013 Hoy 003] [FCN: 4]
  • colsoopcolsoop Posts: 217
    There is a massive cost element to not being able to speak the language of your chosen destination country.

    Forms having to be printed in lots of differing languages, interpreters having to be hired etc

    Although a basic understanding of the language wont stop this need it might reduce it.
  • bearfraserbearfraser Posts: 435
    Without been accused of being a Xenophobe , surely the main consideration is that the country is full to seams ,we can no longer afford to be the place of choice for health/benefits tourists/immigrants . And surely you must be able to enforce the need to speak English as a communication problem ,we have a number of qualified foriegn nationals as doctors and their grasp of English is appaling and is a real patient saftey issue,
Sign In or Register to comment.