Can Contador win it?

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Comments

  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    I know you'll never have heard of him, but go and google Miguel Indurain and let us know what you find out.

    I have a problem with your implication that big Mig never attacked.

    What did Mig do on the first mountain stage of every tour? Rode everybody off his wheel. Invariably there would be one rider who could actually stick with him to nick the stage win but generally he left the GC contenders in tatters behind him. Mig never jumped away from the group a al Contador but if that's not attacking, I don't know what it is.

    This is why AS has infuriated me in the Pyrenees. He kept trying to get the jump and gave up each time it didn't work. He is one of a very elite group of climbers. If he'd ridden Luz Ardiden or PdB from the bottom as hard as he could at his tempo, he would have thinned out the GC group considerably.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I have never claimed to know how to win a Tour. If I did, I wouldn't be sat here typing this out, would I?

    I think you're missing my point. See my explanatory posts above.

    I saw your explaination. It's just one of my pet peevs, people thinking that being good at a sport makes you more knowledgable. It's like saying Kauto Star knows more about horse racing than JP McManus because he's been in a few races.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    RichN95 wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I have never claimed to know how to win a Tour. If I did, I wouldn't be sat here typing this out, would I?

    I think you're missing my point. See my explanatory posts above.

    I saw your explaination. It's just one of my pet peevs, people thinking that being good at a sport makes you more knowledgable. It's like saying Kauto Star knows more about horse racing than JP McManus because he's been in a few races.

    Thanks Rich, I was very careful in my original post to not just include people who race/d. Maybe I should have just gone with "people who know about cycling know more than people who don't". :oops:

    @Morstar

    My tongue was somewhat in my cheek with the Indurain comment. I knew it would wind somebody up!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    “I was very clear about wanting to attack and I didn’t care who got on my wheel. I knew that someone could fail and at the end it was better than I expected,” the leader of Saxo Bank-SunGard said at the finish line.

    “This result is no reason to be euphoric,” said Alberto, “but the most important thing is that my legs responded better and that always motivates the team as well as myself. There are still three more days of mountains left and we’ll have to try to take advantage of them.”

    For Contador, what happened was more important than the seconds gained over his rivals. “The most important thing has been how my legs felt and that there were no accidents,” he said. “The rivals are still the same as yesterday.”

    The purpose of Alberto’s attack was surprise. “It was very clear that it was possible to attack on a day like today, and I wanted to try. I didn’t know about the result, because the climb wasn’t very demanding. I’ve always been motivated, but this motivates me more.”

    Alberto said that the collaboration with Samuel Sánchez will continue in the upcoming days. “We’re very good friends, and in the time trial neither of us is superior to the other. He can be a great ally at some particular time,” he said before acknowledging that Sánchez was “the only one I told that I was going to attack when we got to the climb. It was a shame, because he told me that he was on the edge, otherwise we could have made more time differences.”
    Contador is the Greatest
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    frenchfighter wrote:
    “I was very clear about wanting to attack and I didn’t care who got on my wheel. I knew that someone could fail and at the end it was better than I expected,” the leader of Saxo Bank-SunGard said at the finish line.

    “This result is no reason to be euphoric,” said Alberto, “but the most important thing is that my legs responded better and that always motivates the team as well as myself. There are still three more days of mountains left and we’ll have to try to take advantage of them.”

    For Contador, what happened was more important than the seconds gained over his rivals. “The most important thing has been how my legs felt and that there were no accidents,” he said. “The rivals are still the same as yesterday.”

    The purpose of Alberto’s attack was surprise. “It was very clear that it was possible to attack on a day like today, and I wanted to try. I didn’t know about the result, because the climb wasn’t very demanding. I’ve always been motivated, but this motivates me more.”

    Alberto said that the collaboration with Samuel Sánchez will continue in the upcoming days. “We’re very good friends, and in the time trial neither of us is superior to the other. He can be a great ally at some particular time,” he said before acknowledging that Sánchez was “the only one I told that I was going to attack when we got to the climb. It was a shame, because he told me that he was on the edge, otherwise we could have made more time differences.”

    Bertie not a better tester than Samu? I've heard of buttering people up, but that's ridiculous.
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,795
    morstar wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    I know you'll never have heard of him, but go and google Miguel Indurain and let us know what you find out.

    I have a problem with your implication that big Mig never attacked.

    What did Mig do on the first mountain stage of every tour? Rode everybody off his wheel. Invariably there would be one rider who could actually stick with him to nick the stage win but generally he left the GC contenders in tatters behind him. Mig never jumped away from the group a al Contador but if that's not attacking, I don't know what it is.

    This is why AS has infuriated me in the Pyrenees. He kept trying to get the jump and gave up each time it didn't work. He is one of a very elite group of climbers. If he'd ridden Luz Ardiden or PdB from the bottom as hard as he could at his tempo, he would have thinned out the GC group considerably.

    no he would have blown up or towed everyone else up

    what you need is someone riding up half the mountain at the fastest tempo they can then blowing up in the process but placing the contenders in a uncomfortable zone of effort at which point............... etc


    of course this requires someone to sacrifice their chances


    EG frank for Andy or vice versa
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Well, Bertie certainly seems to have improved somewhat since the second rest day came and went.


    A bit like last year really.
  • acidstrato
    acidstrato Posts: 945
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night
    Crafted in Italy apparantly
  • LJAR
    LJAR Posts: 128
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    LJAR wrote:
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...

    It's good steak too. I had a fantastic one in Beijing. Fortunately there's no testing in low level Welsh hockey.

    I suppose all the teams will take their own food to the Tour of Beijing.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    LJAR wrote:
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...


    Really? Where the hell do you get a statistic like that?

    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Timoid. wrote:
    LJAR wrote:
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...


    Really? Where the hell do you get a statistic like that?

    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    I think the more appropriate question is why would tourists be getting tested for PEDs at all!?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Pokerface wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    LJAR wrote:
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...


    Really? Where the hell do you get a statistic like that?

    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    I think the more appropriate question is why would tourists be getting tested for PEDs at all!?


    I'm still trying to figure out the 66%.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,204
    LJAR wrote:
    acidstrato wrote:
    blatently they were serving spanish beef monday night

    funny you should mention that.

    When coming ack from china (where clenbuterol is used in cattle rearing) something like 66% of tourists test positive for clenbuterol.

    So it certainly is possible to get a clenbuterol positive from beef...

    Unfortunately there is a slight flaw in that statement. Clen is known to be prevalent in cattle rearing in China and other areas such as South America whilst it is banned in the EU and there are no recorded cases in tested cattle in Spain. So had Bertie been racing in China his explanation may have been believable but he wasn't!
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some plasticiser? what are prices like? Any idea what I can expect performance wise?
  • Doobz
    Doobz Posts: 2,800
    skylla wrote:
    Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some plasticiser? what are prices like? Any idea what I can expect performance wise?

    128803826644607904.jpg

    Or just retarded!
    cartoon.jpg
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    Doobz wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some plasticiser? what are prices like? Any idea what I can expect performance wise?

    Or just retarded!

    Neither actually, I just hoped to bring some humour to this thread. Sorry to have offended you sensitive mind.
  • Doobz
    Doobz Posts: 2,800
    skylla wrote:
    Doobz wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some plasticiser? what are prices like? Any idea what I can expect performance wise?

    Or just retarded!

    Neither actually, I just hoped to bring some humour to this thread. Sorry to have offended you sensitive mind.

    no-no.. your right.. Your original post was pretty funny considering...
    cartoon.jpg
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    Doobz wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    Doobz wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some plasticiser? what are prices like? Any idea what I can expect performance wise?

    Or just retarded!

    Neither actually, I just hoped to bring some humour to this thread. Sorry to have offended you sensitive mind.

    no-no.. your right.. Your original post was pretty funny considering...

    Thanks.

    Anyway, I find that when I'm trying to instil some procycling interest with my colleagues the conversation *always* turns to doping. I then inevitably end up discussing the various types of doping (and end up sounding like an apologist) and when asked about the "spindly spanish bloke with a love of beef" I felt obliged to mention plasticisers. Then someone posed the question of above. It killed me....
  • stfc1
    stfc1 Posts: 505
    Timoid. wrote:
    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    Did Contador? I didn't see any mention of it in the evidence presented to the RFEC.
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    stfc1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    Did Contador? I didn't see any mention of it in the evidence presented to the RFEC.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5904/ ... again.aspx

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7934/ ... o-CAS.aspx

    EDIT: also note that the case is now with CAS and not RFEC. Although it seems plast. evidence is present, it is not part of the uci dossier (it merely focuses on the clen, possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time)
  • stfc1
    stfc1 Posts: 505
    skylla wrote:
    stfc1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    Did Contador? I didn't see any mention of it in the evidence presented to the RFEC.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5904/ ... again.aspx

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7934/ ... o-CAS.aspx

    EDIT: also note that the case is now with CAS and not RFEC. Although it seems plast. evidence is present, it is not part of the uci dossier (it merely focuses on the clen, possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time)

    Thanks, I've seen the unsubstantiated media rumours repeated as fact ad nauseum on here.

    But what I haven't seen is the presence of plasticisers mentioned in the evidence presented to the RFEC, and nor is it (as McQuaid states in the second link) forming part of the UCI and WADA's appeal to the CAS. Given how damning their presence would be alongside the rest of the evidence, why is that?

    I'd hate to find too many members of the Bike Radar forum on the jury should I ever be in the dock ;)
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    stfc1 wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    stfc1 wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    Do 66% of tourists also show evidence of plasticisers in their blood?

    Did Contador? I didn't see any mention of it in the evidence presented to the RFEC.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5904/ ... again.aspx

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7934/ ... o-CAS.aspx

    EDIT: also note that the case is now with CAS and not RFEC. Although it seems plast. evidence is present, it is not part of the uci dossier (it merely focuses on the clen, possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time)

    Thanks, I've seen the unsubstantiated media rumours repeated as fact ad nauseum on here.

    But what I haven't seen is the presence of plasticisers mentioned in the evidence presented to the RFEC, and nor is it (as McQuaid states in the second link) forming part of the UCI and WADA's appeal to the CAS. Given how damning their presence would be alongside the rest of the evidence, why is that?

    I'd hate to find too many members of the Bike Radar forum on the jury should I ever be in the dock ;)
    possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time
    and in addition the uci believes their case is strong enough ("the burden of proof is on the athlete to prove the source of those substances")
  • stfc1
    stfc1 Posts: 505
    skylla wrote:
    possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time

    This is conjecture, the key word being "possibly".
    and in addition the uci believes their case is strong enough ("the burden of proof is on the athlete to prove the source of those substances")

    They have to say that, they'd be wasting everybody's time if they went to the CAS openly saying that they had a paper thin case and expected to lose.
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    stfc1 wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time

    This is conjecture, the key word being "possibly".
    and in addition the uci believes their case is strong enough ("the burden of proof is on the athlete to prove the source of those substances")

    They have to say that, they'd be wasting everybody's time if they went to the CAS openly saying that they had a paper thin case and expected to lose.

    it is not conjecture to say that the test was not validated at the time. It is conjecture to say that possibly they did not include these results exactly because of that reason.

    So I'm not too sure what response you're after apart from the fact you you do not seem too convinced that the uci's efforts are laudable.

    Paper-thin is not the case: a positive test is a positive test, no matter how much substance has been cumulatively detected over several days. Guilty of using PED is another matter, but I feel sorry for you if you find that difficult to get your head around.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    A Dutch correspondant in Spain was reporting the other night that the UCI has ruled that if Contador gets done for the beef last year he keeps the results he achieved afterwards.
    _
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    A Dutch correspondant in Spain was reporting the other night that the UCI has ruled that if Contador gets done for the beef last year he keeps the results he achieved afterwards.

    volkskrant? nos?

    I do find that hard to believe but for crying out loud: that wld set some precedent....
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    skylla wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    A Dutch correspondant in Spain was reporting the other night that the UCI has ruled that if Contador gets done for the beef last year he keeps the results he achieved afterwards.

    volkskrant? nos?

    I do find that hard to believe but for crying out loud: that wld set some precedent....

    I think he writes for de telegraaf but he mentioned it on the NOS avondetappe.
    _
  • stfc1
    stfc1 Posts: 505
    skylla wrote:
    stfc1 wrote:
    skylla wrote:
    possibly because the plast. test was not fully validated at the time

    This is conjecture, the key word being "possibly".
    and in addition the uci believes their case is strong enough ("the burden of proof is on the athlete to prove the source of those substances")

    They have to say that, they'd be wasting everybody's time if they went to the CAS openly saying that they had a paper thin case and expected to lose.

    it is not conjecture to say that the test was not validated at the time. It is conjecture to say that possibly they did not include these results exactly because of that reason.

    So I'm not too sure what response you're after apart from the fact you you do not seem too convinced that the uci's efforts are laudable.

    Paper-thin is not the case: a positive test is a positive test, no matter how much substance has been cumulatively detected over several days. Guilty of using PED is another matter, but I feel sorry for you if you find that difficult to get your head around.

    I think I am probably being unduly obstinate here, especially as I have no beef (apologies) with you, so apologies if I've come across as a bit 'off'. I just get annoyed that the plasticisers thing gets thrown around this place (not by you) as if it were a cast iron fact when it is nothing of the sort. I have seen no evidence of it, nor have you, nor has anyone else here, and nor did the RFEC.

    I also didn't mean that I necessarily thought the UCI's case was paper thin, just that ahead of the proceedings the UCI is obliged to talk up its case because otherwise it would make the appeal look like a waste of time.

    For all that I do have one vested interest in that I hope Contador is cleared because he is a classy rider. Note, I do not hope that he 'gets away with it', I hope he is cleared (for the second time) based on a study of the evidence presented.

    Anyway, I think there's a potentially explosive stage evolving somewhere in the Alps right now, so maybe I should concentrate on that instead :)
  • Happiness1982
    Happiness1982 Posts: 51
    Without wanting to derail the thread, I think it's absurd that rider x can have his shit tested in one place and get banned whilst rider y (with exactly the same hypothetical blood) can get tested elsewhere (another lab) and not get banned. I mean, the UCI is almost as backward as FIFA, no?

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