Trouble removing Sugino Messenge cranks...how much force?!

luv2ride

Hi all

Freely admit to not being the most mechanically minded but, after browsing YouTube last night, thought I'd attempt to remove the Sugino Messenger cranks this morning. This was to allow me to remove the square taper bottom bracket in the quest to track down a quiet knocking when the pedals are under heavy load. Wanted to check the BB was running smoothly.

So, assembled the tools (large allen wrench, crank puller, etc), removed the allen bolt / dust caps then proceeded to carefully thread in the crank puller . Once properly seated, I then attempted to wind in the crank puller pin. However, no matter how much force I attempted to exert the thing wouldn't move! Moved onto the chainring side and the same thing - it wouldn't budge!!! The allen wrench handle was visibly bending under the force!? :?

Is this normal, i.e does it just need more "welly" to shift or does it sound like they're seized and needs to go to LBS?

Thanks for any advice that's forthcoming...

JackPozzi

Yes more welly required! FWIW I had to lean quite heavily on a torque wrench with an 18 inch handle the other day to start turning the removal bolt...

luv2ride

Thanks JackPozzi. I was leaning pretty heavily myself using a allen wrench with a padded 8" handle but guess I wimped out.

May try again later!

balthazar

It requires a big lever, usually an AJ or big open spanner on the puller flats, rather than an allen key. Configure everything with the crank at about 9 o'clock and the spanner at 3, and push both down against the floor. This is the best way to avoid hurting yourself, but be careful nonetheless.

Make sure the puller is threaded tight in to the crank, and has good clean threads. The worst case scenario is the puller ripping the threads out of the crank, which requires more ingenious methods for removal (and a new crank).

Yossie

JackPozzi wrote:

Yes more welly required! FWIW I had to lean quite heavily on a torque wrench with an 18 inch handle the other day to start turning the removal bolt...

Please don't undo things with a toque wrench - you'll jazz it up. They are for doing things up only.

JackPozzi

I agree, but it's provided by my company so I don't have to pay to get it replaced and it was the tool that would provide the most leverage at the time!

Actually thinking about it, for crank removal you are doing a bolt up anyway, screwing it in to force the cranks off, so as long as it doesn't click out it isn't an issue.

HadronCyclist

make sure you removed the washer (if there is one) from inside the crank before putting the crank puller in....otherwise you are just fighting yourself

desweller

Check that the foot of the puller is definitely loading on the end of the crankshaft, and doesn't impinge on the crank itself, or you'll just strip the threads out of the crank as Balthazar describes.

keef66

+2 to the above 2 comments

1.) Make sure there isn't a washer still sitting in there.

2.) Make sure the crank puller is bearing squarely on the end of the axle and not fouling the crank somehow.

I've failed to check both these in the past and the result on each occasion has been stripped threads. (and quite a lot of swearing)

crankycrank

Also try pouring some boiling water over the the crank. The heat will help expand the alu and possibly be just enough to get it loose.

desweller

crankycrank wrote:

Also try pouring some boiling water over the the crank. The heat will help expand the alu and possibly be just enough to get it loose.

If you're going to do this, make sure that the water runs away from the crankshaft and pedal axle bearings.

Better to use a heat gun if you have one or can get access to one.

luv2ride

Thanks all. Will try all of the above suggestions and have another go one evening this week (if I get the chance). Determined to sort this without returning to LBS if I can, so thanks for all the helpful comments and suggestions.

cheers

Skippy2309

sometimes a hammer helps a little shock often loosens it off (striking the lever not the crank)

may be a silly question but my father did it. did you remove the centre part before screwing in the crank puller? my father didnt and the thing just wouldnt move. removed centre screwed in fully then inserted the centre and it came off nice and easy

desweller

Sounds lik Trouble in the Messenge Centre .

luv2ride

So, finally managed to remove the cranks following some of the sound advice earlier in the thread , removed the KMC singlespeed chain, now can't budge the bottom bracket "cups" using the Shimano BB removal tool.

How tight should these be, as I'm worried about stripping the threads etc? I'm attempting the undo the right side first, clockwise (as according to the Haynes bike book)

redvee

Try undoing the non-drive first. That might releive the pressure on the BB and threads enough for you to turn the drive side clockwise.

HadronCyclist

usually tightened to 50 - 70Nm, so give it some serious welly. We often have to put a piece of scaffold over the tool to extend the length of the lever, as they often seize up over time.

JackPozzi

Top tip is to bolt the BB removal tool into place using a long bolt into the crank spindle, only problem is it probably takes a fine thread bolt which aren't that easy to find. I tried several ironmongers before eventually being pointed towards a local car spares shop who were able to supply the appropriate bolt.

Once the removal tool is bolted in place it's a lot easier to get the required force on it to remove the cups...

Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, it was a revelation when someone suggested it to me and I can't be the only one who didn't think of doing it that way!

luv2ride

I like the idea of bolting the removal tool in place. On of the problems is that I'm trying to use the removal tool with an old socket wrench, but while the teeth / splines of the tool do marry up to those in the bottom bracket, they don't go in very deep so it's difficult to get any great purchase on it. Only goes in @ 4 or 5mm.

I'll try the non-drive side tonight first and see how I go. Still don't want to give up and pass it onto the LBS just yet!!!

Thanks all

redvee

I've got both types of tool, one that fits a 1/2" drive and one with flats for a 15" jussie. Bolting the tool to the BB takes one worry away and means you can concentrating on straining to turn the BB.

luv2ride

Just tried to shift the non-drive side but still no joy. Tried the drive-side again and that's not budging either. Looks like it might be LBS time after all

Have heard some talk of heating up the frame for some slight expansion - anyone recommend this?

redvee

Plusgas into the seattube via a bottlecage bolt, might kill the bearings in the BB but you're trying to get it out cause it's knackered?

Velonutter

On my track frame it came with a Miche Crank set.

I wanted to take it off to service the BB etc., nope stuck fast on the RHS, ended up pulling the threads I put that much force on it.

Took it to my LBS to see if they had any thoughts and they couldn't get it off, they suggested applying heat to it, but that risked damage to the paintwork on the frame.

I ended up sawing it off last weekend :shock: took me about an hour as I wanted to be careful that I didn't nick the frame, I have heard similar stories about the Miche Cranks, so last time I will use their cranks.

luv2ride

The Plusgas sounds interesting. I may have the opportunity to get it into LBS on Monday, so may see if the pro's can deal with it. Either that or buy a better BB removal tool and long-handled wrench?

The BB removal tool I have came with a bike tool kit from Aldi as the tools are branded "ADW" I think. Tools I'sed so far seem ok and have donbe their jobs pretty well (including the crank pulling tool). However, the BB tool doesn't have the central "locating spindle" that some seem to have and sits quite proud of the BB assembly when mounted. There is a fair amount of lateral movement as you try and turn it, so a better tool might improve matters? :oops:

redvee

luv2ride

That looks a lot more usable than what I'm trying. Looks like a trip to the toolshop first!

redvee

That is 15" of tool :oops: along with an old Shimano BB tool. I've got a newer BB tool that goes on a 1/2" drive but only used for spinning the BB cups in, final tightening is done with the above. You can't see the blood, sweat or tears in teh pic though which were also used at one time or another.