when to stay down !!

oldwelshman

Having seen numerous crashes and injuries this year in tour and other races, maybe in some cases riders should not be "ENCOURAGED" to get back on the bike so fast without medical clearance.
In most sports your nott allowed to participate for a period of time if you suffered concussion yet on more than one occasion riders have suffered this and rode on, this is not a good idea. Aparently Horner did not even know where he was at the end of the stage the other day. This is a danger to himself and other riders.
I know there are doctors there but I saw live on TV people trying to get Wiggins and others back on their bikes.
Worst case I saw was Vino, having gone off at speed on a bend, over a barrier and obviously into a tree as you can see him next to it, he was lifted up by two team mates and some one from the team car, and carrried up the banking. He should never have been moved until examined by some one with medical experience. Maybe the riders should do first aid training as they are often forst at the scene, in some cases seconds can be vital.
With Vinos injuries he would already been suffering shock from loss of blood with a broken femur so probably was unware what was going on even.
I understand they are professional athletes and adrenalin kicks in, but can anyone remeber some one injured so bad then getting on their bike to win the tour?

rick_chasey

http://www.bigringriding.com/post/74140 ... f-my-retir

Hamilton came I think 4th overall in the Tour having spent most of it with a broken collarbone.

plowmar

+100 oldwelshman.

When initially reported Vino had broken his pelvis and therefore moving him without medical supervision could, I say could, have killed him.

From today's Indy. it was Wiggins who was trying to get onto his bike not necceseraly the other way round. Like all bikers the first thing you think of after coming off is where's the bike, is it OK, get back on.

But definitely in a serious crash as have been seen medical notes should be issued, in an ideal world. But how long would this take?

If OK how much time would be lost - after all Contador isn't I believe going to get back from the minor that he had.

Dave-M

It looked like Wiggo was being led to his bike from what I saw.

Tom Butcher

Sounds good in principle but who is going to stop a rider getting back on his bike to continue in the race ?

In situations like Horner's where a doctor, team or race official may have noticed some serious symptoms of injury then I think there is a case for some kind of mechanism at least to report the rider to the race doctor who then has the right to check the rider out and pull them. I'd be against a mandatory check after a crash though simply because I think that would be unworkable. Maybe the rule should be a rider has to get back on their bike unaided - so we don't get riders being lifted off the ground or out of ditches and sat on their bikes.

I was trying to think of an incident where a rider did get back on their bike and suffered serious harm as a consequence - the one that springs to mind is Tom Simpson - though from the footage it's unlikely that that short period of time made the difference between life and death we'll never know for sure.

ollyridesfirst

Unless the rider is suffering from concussion, i'd say they are pretty aware of what sort of injury they have caused to themselves.

All you need to do is train the other riders, team drivers etc to see the signs of concussion and react accordingly.

Pross

I thought that there was now a ruling that the doctor can kick you off the race? After one of the early crashes the commentators were saying the riders often don't admit all their injuries as they don't want to be forced out on medical grounds.

bompington

For paramedics the general rule is that any impact involving speed over something like 20mph is considered major trauma, which means always treat as spinal injury.
So the safe thing to do would be to put them on a spinal board and take to hospital straight away.
But on the other hand, how many spinal injuries have ever actually happened in pro racing?

Gingerflash

It's just the culture of pro cycling. They're mostly pretty tough and no-one wants to quit.

Many many times riders have managed to finish the day, even the tour, with pretty nasty injuries that would, in many other sports, have justified them packing it in.

They're grown ups and I can't see how any nannying system of in-race medical checks could work.

bompington

Gingerflash wrote:

Many many times riders have managed to finish the day, even the tour, with pretty nasty injuries that would, in many other sports, have justified them packing it in.

Have you ever seen a shinty game?

Biscuiteer

oldwelshman wrote:

Worst case I saw was Vino, having gone off at speed on a bend, over a barrier and obviously into a tree as you can see him next to it, he was lifted up by two team mates and some one from the team car, and carrried up the banking. He should never have been moved until examined by some one with medical experience.

I thought that the person who ran down to Vino while he was still on the ground at the bottom of the bank was one of the Tour's doctors, not one of the Astana staff? She was the one in the white shirt and black gilet and looked to be instructing the Astana riders and checking Vino's leg as they lifted him. It also looks like there's a large medical kit open on the ground down there too.

She first appears at 35 seconds in, running towards Vino from the right, and then again at 70 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSkcHhYzdc&t=35s

oldwelshman

Obviously a rider has a pretty good idea of injuries, and for non traumatic injuries sure they can carry on, but in the case of Horner he landed on his head !! At least he should have had check for concussion, but you can also get delayed concussion so he should have been checked for that before he finished.
As for vion,they should have easily diagnosed broken pelvis and he should not have been moved the way he was. His crash was not the typicl slide down the road, gravel rash and get back on, he went over a barrier and into a tree at speed. This does not happen that often but he should have been checked more thoroughly before being moved, especially as his femur was also broken, could have had even more damage as a result.
A rider or his team mates are probably not the best to decide if they go on in such a crash
I would not compare this to Albertos crash and most of the others though where they could carry on and get a once over when back on the bike.
I wonder if Hoogerland had a Tetinus jab ?

RichN95.

oldwelshman wrote:

I wonder if Hoogerland had a Tetinus jab ?

He'd had four or five of them by the looks of it.

estampida

the clearance is a good idea, but there have been riders in the past that might not have had clearance, but still could compete and win

greg lemond, was full of shotgun pellets, some in organ lining and still won,

(Disclamer - this is along time ago and really cannot remember the exact circumstances)
I think he won the tdf once with tapeworm complications, with massive blood loss in his p1ss, they would stop you know I hope but............

CyclingBantam

Whist there is obvious sense in ensuring riders are fit to continue I fail to see what is wrong with the current system. The last thing you want to happen with cycling is introduce the over caution of other sports.

Football is a waste of time to watch now when you have the physio on every 5 minutes. The culture is to show weakness where ever possible.

Cycling isn't like that and that is why we respect the riders (does anyone seriously have any respect for footballers?). If a rider is so badly hurt they can't ride, they will not be getting back on. I do think, in the main the safety is very, very good.

I do agree it should be regularily evaluated though.

On a practical level it wouldn't work for cycling either. After every accident, if people had to be examined by a doctor (even if only for a few seconds) you would find everyone out the back following any crash.

Dorset_Boy

Maybe they should introduce cognitive tests for concussion as they do in rugby. An out of season base level for each player is assessed and they can only return to playing after a head injury when they can match the base level test responses. A simple procedure the following morning before starting the stage.

RichN95.

CyclingBantam wrote:

(does anyone seriously have any respect for footballers?).

Well you're the one with the Stuart McCall avatar.

Footballers aren't all alike. They've got a few 'Hoogerlands' of their own.

winterdancer

I heard an interview with some rugby players (can't remember all the details) where they said that some of them deliberately fluff the out of season cognitive tests so that even if they have had a knock to the head during a game, they might pass the lower-than-it-should-be base level. Seems idiotic to me when it could be your long-term health at risk, but that's the pressures of the professional game...

LangerDan

RichN95 wrote:

CyclingBantam wrote:

(does anyone seriously have any respect for footballers?).

Well you're the one with the Stuart McCall avatar.

Footballers aren't all alike. They've got a few 'Hoogerlands' of their own.

Conversely, if there was an advantage (e.g. time bonus) to be gained in cycling from over-playing your injuries in front of the commissaire, you'd see some riders writhing around on the deck as if a grenade had gone off.

shinyhelmut

Gingerflash wrote:

It's just the culture of pro cycling. They're mostly pretty tough and no-one wants to quit.

They're grown ups and I can't see how any nannying system of in-race medical checks could work.

True. I was racing a triathlon a couple of weeks back on a very hot day. I know of several people who went to significant lengths to disguise their physical state because they were afraid of being pulled out by marshals or medical staff, and none of us were relying on finishing to pay the mortgage.

If you consider the risks that some riders take with their health wrt doping I'm sure they would do all they possibly could to circumvent any medical checks.

verylonglegs

LangerDan wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

CyclingBantam wrote:

(does anyone seriously have any respect for footballers?).

Well you're the one with the Stuart McCall avatar.

Footballers aren't all alike. They've got a few 'Hoogerlands' of their own.

Conversely, if there was an advantage (e.g. time bonus) to be gained in cycling from over-playing your injuries in front of the commissaire, you'd see some riders writhing around on the deck as if a grenade had gone off.

Thought that a few times now as several people have said how tough cyclists are compared to footballers and citing Hoogerlands crash. Acting hurt in football is a tool for cheating, nothing to do with how 'hard' a player is so I really don't think it's a valid comparison. Would like to make it clear though that the diving and acting and football does still annoy me immensely, I don't follow the game like I used to as a result of how bad it is now.

vs

What annoys me about football is the whole squad rotation thing to rest 'tired' players.

Tired from what - 3 hours of kicking around a few mornings and a maximum of 2 games a week.

rick_chasey

vs wrote:

What annoys me about football is the whole squad rotation thing to rest 'tired' players.

Tired from what - 3 hours of kicking around a few mornings and a maximum of 2 games a week.

The performance drop from a 'tired' player or team to one that isn't quite noticeable though.

paddlemyowncanoe

Medicalising who can and can't compete mid event is not going to work. You would have to neutralise the race to conduct 40 mental state examinations after a tour pile up.

The best test as to whether or not to procede is probably to get on your bike and try to ride it - these guys are pros and it's their job and they know if they are going to manage it or not. They have seen more crashes than we can ever imagine.

Identifying a fractured pelvis is remarkably difficult without an x-ray, btw, especially in heavily muscled athletes charged with adrenaline post crash.

oldwelshman

I think maybe my point may have been understood.
All I meant was for when the most serious and rare accidents happen, such as with Vino.It should have been blatantly obvious not to move him but he was lifted and carried up to the road.
Also if suspected head injuries, just a qucik check to see if concussed before carrying on, not a full mediacal!! and a follow up in the evening.
Most accidents riders could continue.
A rider should not continue if concussed way too risky for him and others.and no one with a broken femure either !!
Scrapes scratehs cuts and brusies yes.

rick_chasey

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... -destroyed

An excellent article on a NFL player who suffered a lot of brain injuries and how it affected his life.

You wonder if the same thing (though, naturally, less extreme) is occurring in cycling.