The long and the short of it

thegreatdivide
thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
edited August 2011 in Workshop
I'm building up my Wilier Cento Uno dream bike and I'm going to hang Super Record on it. I'm currently riding a 34/50 12/25 Veloce set-up on my Izoard and I'm quite comfortable with this combination on UK hills, so I was planning on getting the same in Super Record with a short rear derailleur.

At some point in the not too distant future I'm going to do the Etape, Ventoux, Maratona dles Dolomites etc and this will probably mean a change of rear cassette. So a) what range of cassettes can be used on a short cage and b) should I get a long cage so I have the option of a bigger range of cassettes?

Does this make sense? I'm rubbish at ratios.

Comments

  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    You can run a Campagnolo 13:29 with the 50:34 compact using the standard short cage. I've done this with 2010 Centaur without problems and it does work with completely crossed chains! (despite what others might think.....).

    No idea if the SheldonBrown suggestion of a 30 sprocket that explosifpete linked to works with Campag as 29 is as far as Campag themselves go.

    Note 1: these gears still didn't get me up Hardknott on the Fred :lol:
    Note 2: but I had no problem going up Mt Evans with a standard compact and that is 14000 feet so, for me, gradient rather than distance is the killer!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Yup, short-arm rear mech will happily cope with 13-29 cassette. Dunno if anyone is updating Sheldon's site since his sad death, so have to consider that content isn't bang up to date.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • Berk Bonebonce
    Berk Bonebonce Posts: 1,245
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Yup, short-arm rear mech will happily cope with 13-29 cassette..

    I'd like to see it with my own eyes. Until then I am inclined to think the capacity will be exceeded with a short cage, and you will not be able to pass the small/small and large/large tests with one. Which is fine if you never run those particular gears.

    Am I right in thinking that the first Campag medium cage does not make an appearance until Centaur (10 speed)?
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    I'd like to see it with my own eyes. Until then I am inclined to think the capacity will be exceeded with a short cage, and you will not be able to pass the small/small and large/large tests with one. Which is fine if you never run those particular gears.

    As is so often the case, you are completely wrong. Sometimes I wonder how you manage to be wrong so often unless you are trolling!

    I'm not making this up btw. I have been running a 13-29 on my Ribble since the Fred happily crossing the chain on a daily basis because I'm a bit crap that way.

    But yes, at least in my 2009 catalogue, there were no medium cages above Centaur.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    Cheers folks. I'll stick to the short. I just didn't want to have to make very expensive changes in the near future.
  • Berk Bonebonce
    Berk Bonebonce Posts: 1,245
    Rolf F wrote:
    But yes, at least in my 2009 catalogue, there were no medium cages above Centaur.

    It is interesting how Campag have consistently said that you need a medium cage with a 29, whether standard or compact double. I still doubt whether a short cage will pass the small/small and big/big test.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Rolf F wrote:
    But yes, at least in my 2009 catalogue, there were no medium cages above Centaur.

    It is interesting how Campag have consistently said that you need a medium cage with a 29, whether standard or compact double. I still doubt whether a short cage will pass the small/small and big/big test.

    You can doubt it as much as you like but the fact is that I have repeatedly done small/small, big/big on my standard compact short mech with 13-29. Do you think I am lying?

    Others clearly have as well.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Read this immediately!

    This is probably the link that I post most often on BikeRadar, because (1) everyone asks questions related to this and (2) it explains everything so well that even a complete mong should be able to work out what they want to do after reading it.

    Before someone moans, yes it is about MTB groupsets, but the fundamentals of derailleur function are exactly the same. I'm sure you can find out the spec of the short/med/long cage derailleurs you're looking at on the campag website.
  • huuregeil
    huuregeil Posts: 780
    I have, like Rolf, have also run 50/34 & 13-29 perfectly fine with campag short cage. It's on the limit, and requires good setup but does work well. If you're setup is less than perfect, then you might loose a gear, but who uses large/large or small/small anyway?
  • OK, so according to the guys at Pro Bike Kit, Super Record now only comes in one derailleur size and it can handle anything between 11/23 to 12/29. So the question now is do I go for a compact with 12/27 or 12/29, or is the latter excessive considering most of my riding will be in Scotland, albeit in a hilly part of Scotland with a few foreign mountain trips planned? Or should I meet half way and get the 12/27?
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Depends on your fitness really and whether you want the 29 'bailout' , can live with the bigger gaps between sprockets or are comfortable with just having to grind your way up on 27.
    FWIW I've ridden up Hardknott on 39x23 but it wasn't pretty or elegant and hurt like hell, so it's really down to you own tastes in sado-masochism! Generally the longer climbs in the Alps etc aren't quite as steep as some in the UK but just go one considerably longer, so gear choice is down to what you can comfortable sit-down and spin rather giving it plenty of welly and body-language.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • Pre crash I could pretty much handle anything round these parts on a 12/25 (we've got some brutal 20%+ bits) so I think I'll go for a 12/27 so I've got that wee bit extra when the time comes.
  • geoff_ss
    geoff_ss Posts: 1,201
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Depends on your fitness really and whether you want the 29 'bailout' , can live with the bigger gaps between sprockets or are comfortable with just having to grind your way up on 27.
    FWIW I've ridden up Hardknott on 39x23 but it wasn't pretty or elegant and hurt like hell, so it's really down to you own tastes in sado-masochism! Generally the longer climbs in the Alps etc aren't quite as steep as some in the UK but just go one considerably longer, so gear choice is down to what you can comfortable sit-down and spin rather giving it plenty of welly and body-language.

    In my experience, the gradients in the big mountains in France are not all that great. What brings a rider to his/her knees the relentless length of the climb. They're fitness, rather than strength exercises.

    FWIW I rode my old Higgins 2WD trike over Wrynose one Christmas on a 40" bottom gear (38x26 IIRC). Of course I was much younger then and you can ride very slowly on a trike :) Didn't continue over Hardknott as we had to get back to Coniston YH before dark - at least that's my excuse.
    Old cyclists never die; they just fit smaller chainrings ... and pedal faster
  • stoobydale
    stoobydale Posts: 535
    It is interesting how Campag have consistently said that you need a medium cage with a 29, whether standard or compact double. I still doubt whether a short cage will pass the small/small and big/big test.

    Why doubt what information people give out in good faith on this and many other sites? You might be a nice guy but you come accross as a bit of a tool.

    I too can confirm that a short cage and 29t sprocket will work fine and the big to big chainline.
  • galaxyboy
    galaxyboy Posts: 168
    stoobydale wrote:
    It is interesting how Campag have consistently said that you need a medium cage with a 29, whether standard or compact double. I still doubt whether a short cage will pass the small/small and big/big test.

    Why doubt what information people give out in good faith on this and many other sites? You might be a nice guy but you come accross as a bit of a tool.

    I too can confirm that a short cage and 29t sprocket will work fine and the big to big chainline.

    Sounds good to me. Did you need to use a longer chain??
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    2 link pairs longer I think in my case. I just keep a specific chain for the cassette both of which are used irregularly!
    Faster than a tent.......