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Drugs, a debate.

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  • davisdavis Posts: 2,506
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    I've never seen an E user do anything other than dance and hug. That was one of the great things about the raves in the early 90s. NO VIOLENCE WHATSOEVER!!!!

    Actually, the only 3 times I ever took (claimed to be) ecstasy, I ended up really angry with everyone around me and really hungry. I firmly believe that it wasn't actually ecstasy, which means a monitored safe supply would probably be a good thing... Oh, look, we're here again :-)

    [Edit] Forgot to say: I was aware it was happening, and took myself off to the quiet spots 'cos I've never fancied any trouble. I was one of the very few people troubling the food stalls at some of these places...
    Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    DDD wrote:
    Peanut butter, cream and sugar, for example, are all far more likely to damage the health of their users.

    I have actually no more interest in talking to you.

    Thats not very mature.
    I'm with MBC on this though. The medical evidence is that heroin does little to no damage to the body. The same cannot be said for sugar.
    DDD wrote:
    EKE wrote:
    Coke leads to bragging and talking rubbish.
    Heroin chills people out so much that it makes a stoned person look like they are on speed.
    Ecstasy makes people dance and hug each other.
    No idea of the what the effects of crack are. All I've seen is the theft and general crime that its criminal status leads to. Same with Crystal Meth.


    You I can talk to. I agree with all those assertions.

    Heroin's most damaging quality is the speed and to the degree it can make a person become addicted to it. It's a aggressive chemical that tricks the brain into believing it needs it to survive. Without it for too long addicts can have a number of physical reactions that can lead to death (even though the body doesn't need it to survive). Because there is this need for heroin addicts become more desperate to fund the habit and that's where the problem resides.

    Crack is pretty much the same. Crystal Meth actually makes people psychotic.

    So even if weed, coke, ecstasy was made legal, things like Heroin, Crack and Crystal Meth never could.

    I accept that I have an militant stance on drugs and this may or may not be the norm.

    Yeah, thats a pretty hardline stance. Have a spliff and callm down a bit!
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  • Keith1983Keith1983 Posts: 575
    Some interesting info on heroin there.

    One of the things that would concern me is that if currently illegal drugs were legalised then they would simply follow the model of those that we already have like alcohol and cigarettes?

    Whilst I like to have a nice cold beer at a weekend, you can't argue that alcohol and cigarettes costs the NHS millions and also is responsible for people's deaths and the behaviour changing properties of alcohol are responsible for numerous crimes on a daily basis.

    I do appreciate though that both cigarettes and alcohol do generate millions in tax every year. Some reliable figures on the tax generated compared with the cost to the NHS and emergencyu services would make interesting reading.
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    davis wrote:
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    I've never seen an E user do anything other than dance and hug. That was one of the great things about the raves in the early 90s. NO VIOLENCE WHATSOEVER!!!!

    Actually, the only 3 times I ever took (claimed to be) ecstasy, I ended up really angry with everyone around me and really hungry. I firmly believe that it wasn't actually ecstasy, which means a monitored safe supply would probably be a good thing... Oh, look, we're here again :-)

    [Edit] Forgot to say: I was aware it was happening, and took myself off to the quiet spots 'cos I've never fancied any trouble. I was one of the very few people troubling the food stalls at some of these places...

    Fighty and hungry? Sounds like no E I've ever heard of!
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  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    I work in mental health, I've see the effects of alcohol, drugs, genes etc.

    I've also taken drugs. My experience and knowledge is that people seem to claim that they don't do any physical damage when they clearly do.

    MBC's remarks about doing as much damage as peanut butter is idiotic to be frank.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,497 Lives Here
    Keith1983 wrote:

    , you can't argue that alcohol and cigarettes costs the NHS millions and also is responsible for people's deaths and the behaviour changing properties of alcohol are responsible for numerous crimes on a daily basis.

    You're saying this as if there aren't already costs for dealing with the people who are on drugs now?
  • Heroin is only unsafe because the production and distribution is in the hands of criminals who think nothing of adulterating the product. Sugars are more harmful to the human body than heroin, that's why premature babies are injected with heroin. Doctors do not usually inject harmful substances.
  • davisdavis Posts: 2,506
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Fighty and hungry? Sounds like no E I've ever heard of!

    Yeah, I know, me neither: that's most of the reason I believe that they weren't what was claimed. As it happens the worst that occurred was me having about 4 hours by myself, then collecting my mates and getting home safely.

    Although come to think of it, one of the times was apparently known-good MDMA powder. I didn't have the best time ever on that either (not fighty+hungry, just a bit "meh"). Maybe it's just not for me.
    Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    DDD, do you think that a pure supply of heroin would've made much difference to the mental health of the people you see at work (and I don't mean your co-workers). Genuine question.
    Peanut butter is high in sugar and salt. Eat enough of it and it will do you no good.

    I find it funny that this thread hasn't mentioned LSD. If this question had been asked in the 60s it would have focused on this drug rather than heroin (which I think became more of an issue after Vietnam).
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  • wgwarburtonwgwarburton Posts: 1,863
    Hi,
    It's the hypocrisy over alcohol (and nicotine) that gets to me. I don't see how discussions about "drugs" can ignore the social impact of alcohol.

    No-one's suggesting we ban alcohol- it was tried before and look how that went. If banning alcohol doesn't work why would you expect banning other drugs to be successful?

    Is cannabis more dangerous than alcohol? MDMA? Cocaine? Mephedrone?

    How about anabolic steroids? EPO? Caffeine?

    We need a sensible, rational debate. It's not going to happen any time soon...

    Cheers,
    W.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,497 Lives Here
    Hi,
    It's the hypocrisy over alcohol (and nicotine) that gets to me. I don't see how discussions about "drugs" can ignore the social impact of alcohol.

    No-one's suggesting we ban alcohol- it was tried before and look how that went. If banning alcohol doesn't work why would you expect banning other drugs to be successful?

    Is cannabis more dangerous than alcohol? MDMA? Cocaine? Mephedrone?

    How about anabolic steroids? EPO? Caffeine?

    We need a sensible, rational debate. It's not going to happen any time soon...

    Cheers,
    W.

    Which is more harmful or dangerous is surely irrelevant? 100 years of probation hasn't stopped people taking it, and has only served to criminalise it, with all that that entails.

    People will take it, whatever, so why not have it above ground where it can be monitored and checked?
  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    I'm currently reading Obama's book Dreams From My Father and I think he was very clever politically by saying that he has smoked weed and snorted coke before anyone could try and 'out' him.

    Didn't seem to do him much harm. I wonder if he still puffs.

    Picture the scene. The White House, residental area
    Obama: Where are the skins
    Biden: I think Hillary had them
    Obama: (shouts) Hill, you got any Rizlas?
    Hillary: (shouts from another room) No Barry, but I've got some of Bill's cigars if you want to roll a blunt
    Biden: Just say no, you know where Bill puts his cigars, right?
    Obama: (giggles)(shouts)Er, no thanks Hill.

    That would be a sitcom I would watch.
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  • mcj78mcj78 Posts: 634
    I've also heard that pure pharmaceutical grade heroin/diamorphine (the name "heroin" itself is/was a trademark of some big pharma company, the name of which escapes me) has few serious side effects from long-term use, and the main reason those addicted to the "street" variation cause so much trouble maybe down to the fact that there is so little of the actual drug in whatever censored they're injecting/smoking the craving never really gets satisfied. If users were provided with a clean, safe supply which they could gradually be weaned off (not methadone, which in itself can be addictive & harmful to health) it would be a more effective strategy in dealing with the overall problem, as shown in various trial studies.

    As for the more widely used "recreational" drugs like weed & ecstacy, I think it's purely down to past (& present) governments' pig headed attitudes towards the "war on drugs" & the fear of ridicule from opposing parties if they approached the matter sensibly, i.e. if the government accepted they have no chance in hell of getting a decent percentage of illegal substances off the streets whilst "prohibition" reigns, and instead thought about taking the supply of certain drugs out of the hands of the dealers & started controlling supply themselves. Then they could rake in the cash instead of the dealers, & offset it against national debt before we end up like Greece.

    The 15 or so states in the USA which have effectively legalized weed are seemingly turning it into a fair money spinner - pay $100 dollars for a permit from the doctor & you can fire down tto the dispensary & knock yourself out (literally) on highly taxed "medicinal" marijuana.

    Mybreakfastconsisted's comments about cream, peanut butter & sugar which DDD dismissed out of hand are probably true...
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  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    DDD, do you think that a pure supply of heroin would've made much difference to the mental health of the people you see at work (and I don't mean your co-workers). Genuine question.

    But that isn't the issue, the issue is to not be addicted to Heroin at all. I do not believe that making it legal - which would put in place regulations that might involve purity levels - would achieve this.
    Peanut butter is high in sugar and salt. Eat enough of it and it will do you no good.

    Yes, but should you go a few days without it you won't find yourself hunched over in pain, in a cold sweat, violently vomiting (to the point of having a dangerously level of body fluids) and having convulsions.
    I find it funny that this thread hasn't mentioned LSD. If this question had been asked in the 60s it would have focused on this drug rather than heroin (which I think became more of an issue after Vietnam).
    I suppose that the drugs go through phases. Each generation having the 'vogue drug'.


    DDD on alcohol. As I said previously Alcohol doesn't have the same extreme affects as other drugs, the side effects aren't as damaging there is also an ease to which alcohol can be made and therefore making it increasingly harder to regulate if made illegal.

    I love a drink, but I'm not a fan of the drinking culture at times. Too that extent I don't like drinking in front of young children.

    What separates drinking and smoking from other drugs is its impact on the body/mind over time. Drink a pint of Heroin or Beer and tell me which is going to affect you more? No matter how much you try to draw comparisons drinking and smoking isn't as psychoactive as class A drugs. Most Class A drugs will either mess your body or you mind far easier and quicker than drinking and smoking ever could, which is part of the reason why we have the whole drug classification system.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 64,497 Lives Here
    DonDaddyD wrote:


    What separates drinking and smoking from other drugs is its impact on the body/mind over time. Drink a pint of Heroin or Beer and tell me which is going to affect you more? No matter how much you try to draw comparisons drinking and smoking isn't as psychoactive as class A drugs. Most Class A drugs will either mess your body or you mind far easier and quicker than drinking and smoking ever could, which is part of the reason why we have the whole drug classification system.

    That's beside the point people take it regardless of a) the damage and b) the legal status of said drug.
  • mcj78mcj78 Posts: 634
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    I'm currently reading Obama's book Dreams From My Father and I think he was very clever politically by saying that he has smoked weed and snorted coke before anyone could try and 'out' him.

    Didn't seem to do him much harm. I wonder if he still puffs.

    Picture the scene. The White House, residental area
    Obama: Where are the skins
    Biden: I think Hillary had them
    Obama: (shouts) Hill, you got any Rizlas?
    Hillary: (shouts from another room) No Barry, but I've got some of Bill's cigars if you want to roll a blunt
    Biden: Just say no, you know where Bill puts his cigars, right?
    Obama: (giggles)(shouts)Er, no thanks Hill.

    That would be a sitcom I would watch.
    #

    Haha - I remember seeing an interview with the guy who played Roland in Grange Hill who confessed he'd had a sneaky banger whilst a guest at the Whitehouse when he was invited there as part of the big "Just say no" campaign against drugs...

    And Willie Nelson obviously - "a big fat Austin torpedo" apparently.
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  • EKE_38BPMEKE_38BPM Posts: 5,821
    I have no experience of heroin, but I'm sure a pint of it would do you no good at all!

    I asked about heroin and mental health because I've never heard of any link between the two.

    Only a fool would deny that heroin is highly addictive, but once addicted to a clean supply, no harm is sustained. Kick it and all is fine and dandy again. The same can't be said for booze.

    DDD is spot on about 'vogue' drugs. I've only heard of Qualuudes (sp?) but they seemed all the rage in the 70s (maybe just an American sex thing).
    It seems that the 'vogue' lasts 10-20 years, so the successor to Es will be just around the corner and with it a change in music.
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  • ceecee Posts: 4,553
    on mental health....

    there is also huge debate about causation of mental health issues and drug use.....

    do people in early stages of mental health use drugs to self medicate (as they also do with alcohol, where commonly people are diagnosed alcohlics actually have unedrlying mental health issues....the stat about homeless people and mental health issues etc)....or does the self medication cause the mental health issue.....

    all the language is geared around 'propensity for mental health issues'.....

    many of my family are mental health professionals (from community to state hospital to harm reduction and back again)....i have heard many debates around the issue.....with no clear 'winner'....
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  • davmaggsdavmaggs Posts: 1,008
    Up until world war one you could buy drugs in the UK (and firearms) openly from the high street. There were addicts of course just as there is with booze now, but millions of people went about their lives safely and the nation functioned. The difference is that a legal product can be cheap enough not to require the addict to steal as they can afford to buy it using legal wages.

    Drugs at the wholesale end cost virtually nothing to make and the market is in effect a pyramid scheme with each layer adding a cost which makes the final street price far higher (and worth doing), and requires the lower levels to cheat to make their profit. This suggests that the high street could do a price that bankrupts the illegal supply chain, provides regulated quality and can be taxed enough to cover the healthcare bill.

    It is a very tricky issue. I notice that it seems to revolve more around opinion and anecdotes than detailed studies..
  • Isn't the actual drug taking basically decriminalised anyway?
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  • rubertoerubertoe Posts: 3,994
    Listen to the streets song

    The irony of it all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDRBm-qbQI

    Good comment on the Cannabis/alcohol debate.

    I cant really comment on the Harder drugs as i have never taken them - so i don't buy into the whole 1 leads to another. but what i do know is that i smoked weed (not what I'd call it) for 15 years pretty much everyday. i didn't commit any crime to obtain any (other than the purchase) worked hard and payed for it out of my own pocket. but you could never guarantee the quality or the quantity and it has got worse recently - i haven't smoked any since October (purely for financial reasons) but i assume its still the same.

    Where as if it was sold next to the legal drugs that i can buy - and duly pay tax on - then quality and quantity would not have been an issue.

    there needs to be some sensibility to it - obviously there is a big difference to someone smoking some weed at home after a hard day at work - to someone committing a criminal offence to pay for something that clearly they cannot live without.

    maybe we should make Addictive Personality illegal.
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  • TutterzTutterz Posts: 27
    I'm all for legalisation and control by the government of cannabis but not so on some harder drugs such as meth and crack as anyone who decides its a good idea to take that stuff in the first place knowing the consequences is just playing a part of natural selection.
    Where as due to the increasing popularity of medical cannabis in america as well as pushing legislation to decriminalize it a lot of research has been put into the effects and uses of it and theres nothing but positives coming back as well as making money from taxing it
  • BelgianBeerGeekBelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    There is a massive difference between decriminalisation and legalisation - decriminalising basically still leaves it in the hands of the people who sell it now. Would you want anyone selling heroin outside the school gates of your kid's school (plus it may be the same censored they were selling before).

    Some substances may lead to people becoming dependant on them. Highest is nicotine, way more addictive in itself than class A drugs or alcohol for that matter. Education and helping those who do fall prey to addictions may be better than making users criminals.

    Oh, and kieranb, I spotted the South Park reference, well done :lol:
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  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... 2#17102602

    Yeah, lets legalise them.

    Needs pointing out.
    MBC wrote:
    Heroin is only unsafe because the production and distribution is in the hands of criminals who think nothing of adulterating the product. Sugars are more harmful to the human body than heroin, that's why premature babies are injected with heroin. Doctors do not usually inject harmful substances.

    This is monumentally stupid. Heroin is unsafe because of what the drug does boith physically and mentally (you ever seen a healthy looking heroin addict?) and not because of the people choose to sell it.

    Do you/have you hooked it to your arm on a regular basis?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,756
    Might be worth checking out the reasons people have for using nihilistic drugs like heroin in the first place. "Recreational" drugs are a different matter, and I see no reason why they shouldn't be decriminalised. Being illegal has never stopped anyone getting these drugs if they wanted them. It just made it more expensive and more risky.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    notsoblue wrote:
    Might be worth checking out the reasons people have for using nihilistic drugs like heroin in the first place. "Recreational" drugs are a different matter, and I see no reason why they shouldn't be decriminalised. Being illegal has never stopped anyone getting these drugs if they wanted them. It just made it more expensive and more risky.

    For all the same reasons you wouldn't decriminalise heroin. The short-term and long-term side effects.

    The added exposure to innocents - kids etc - decriminalisation of said drugs would have. Would you want your kids going into a shop and lined up next to the Benson&Hedges was a box containing 3 lines of Columbia's finest with the advertising to boot (assuming decriminalising said drugs led to making them completely legal)?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • SimonAHSimonAH Posts: 3,730
    DDD

    You are continually cross-referencing the Amy Winehouse and the Drugs threads, whilst rather missing the point.

    Whilst I'm certain that drugs had a part to play in her downfall I'm pretty sure that alcohol was the biggest factor. Still, even if it were purely drugs rather than booze, we know that people die from drugs. There are as many ways to die as you wish to pluck from the sack, and a very large number of them are self inflicted in the full knowledge that the persons actions are vastly increasing the odds of premature death.

    I do not advocate the use of drugs, I don't use them myself (other than probably the worst two, alcohol and tobacco) but I do consider that legalisation is the only way to control things.

    At the moment you not only get the deaths from the ODs, you also get the deaths and the misery from the illegal trade.
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  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    SimonAH wrote:
    DDD

    You are continually cross-referencing the Amy Winehouse and the Drugs threads, whilst rather missing the point.

    I did it twice yesterday. My point above has nothing to do with A Wimehouse.
    Whilst I'm certain that drugs had a part to play in her downfall I'm pretty sure that alcohol was the biggest factor.
    Hang on... what?
    Still, even if it were purely drugs rather than booze, we know that people die from drugs. There are as many ways to die as you wish to pluck from the sack, and a very large number of them are self inflicted in the full knowledge that the persons actions are vastly increasing the odds of premature death.

    Yes people die due to various reasons. Hell a peanut allergy can kill. None of which justifies or reduces the actual physcial and mental dangers of drugs. Of which, the banned stuff tend to to carry more dangers than most.

    It also doesn't reduce the fact that, yes, while they give you a high there are lasting side affects that do far more damage than the high that is craved.
    I do not advocate the use of drugs, I don't use them myself (other than probably the worst two, alcohol and tobacco) but I do consider that legalisation is the only way to control things.

    At the moment you not only get the deaths from the ODs, you also get the deaths and the misery from the illegal trade.

    I think that is terribly naive.

    "You only get people dying from ODs and misery from illegal trade"

    1). Over dosing isn't the only way drugs kill. People's organs can - overtime - wear themselves out due to drug use. The drugs themselves can lead to stupid decisions that also result in deaths. I'm actually not going to list all the many ways drugs can in fact kill.

    Further more "overdose" in the context of drugs implies that there is a recommended limit of said drug that should be taken. There isn't. A drug overdose implies that the person has taken more (toxic substance/s) than their body can handle. In many cases it is entirely subjective. For some that could be a line of coke ("oh, they only had a line that can't kill" - how do you know?) for others that could be a mixture of an multitude of drugs over a 5 day period.

    2). If you legalise drugs the drug barons won't immediately become pillars of society. Legalisation will only mean that the drugs themselves are more accessible. Sure a Government or private company may start making the drugs it won't remove the criminal element - some of it bought about through addiction. It won't remove the plethora of side effects (often negative) from the drugs. As I've said, I've never seen a healthy heavy drug user.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • leginlegin Posts: 132
    i would legalise drugs but make it illegal not to register as a drug addict.
    you would then know the extent of the problem and the money saved by providing the drugs in a controlled enviroment could fund help for the addicts.
    as it is you will never beat the problem there is just to much money involved and to many people willing to take the risks to make the money.
    the vast majority of crime is drug related and of course you have the lifestyle linked to the abuse the abandoned children the abused husbands and wives the families that fall apart.im speaking from experience as a police officer,were not even scratching the surface of the problem as it stands.
    controversial opinion i hear you say but you dont see what i see every day.
    take the profit away and there will be no dealers and no need for addicts to steal to fund their addiction,which can cost some of them as much as a £1000 a month.
    look through history nothing tried so far as made any difference.
  • SimonAHSimonAH Posts: 3,730
    Everything requires a transition time (baron to pillar), nobody but an idiot would argue otherwise - however once the profit motivator is removed, the trade will disappear. Pass a law requiring all cars to be sold at cost of manufacturing and then tell me how many car dealerships you expect to see a couple of months later.

    Next, "not only the deaths from the ODs but also". I'm terribly sorry. Please insert into this statement every harmful side effect from bad skin to organ failure, and then add "but also the deaths and the misery from the illegal trade" And then try to quantify the deaths, the misery, the ruined lives, the prison rapes, the beatings, the extortion, the prostitution that stem from the illegality.

    Make it legal and you may well see a little more addiction in the short term, but you chop the head from the beast.

    Finally, safe doses? Hmm. True. But I reckon going into the pharmacy to buy your heroin will mean that it would be of consistent quality and come in a packet with dosage advice on the side - which is not what one normally gets from a bloke outside a nightclub. Not a good position, but less bad.
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