Philippe Gilbert

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

But seriously, why is there doping chat on the GIlbert thread?

I know it's the Tour so some of it is obligatory, but really?

Because he's won a few races. That's it really. But that's how some people think.

BikingBernie

Rick Chasey wrote:

We've got a guy who's retired getting some juice, and a guy from another team. Nothing close to Gilbert.

Except he was due to be part of the Omega Pharma-Lotto entourage at this year's Tour...

BikingBernie

Rich,

So what you are saying is that, firstly, there are plenty of people who profit from encouraging doping. I agree. Secondly, that the riders are psychologically predisposed to take anything that they think will make them go faster. Again, I agree.

As to your claim that 'It's possible that they [current doping methods] don't give any meaningful benefit'. I would argue that this purely wishful thinking, motivated by a desire to believe that the 'sport' is credible and the performances one sees are authentic. Lots of things are 'possible', but that doesn't mean that they are at all likely.

As to cheats not always prospering. This doesn't alter the fact that many cheats do indeed proper. The guy in my Avatar for one.

P.s. Rich. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the importance of psychological factors. You also seem to be convinced that riders believe it when they are told doping works. Now a while ago Iain said something that I thought was very significant, That is, if you are riding clean and believe that you are racing against opponents who have an advantage due to doping, the pressure would be intolerable. Kimmage said something similar about the way riders feel they must dope because if they don't they will be 'blitzed' by those who do. Also, many riders have said that it is only possible to push yourself to the absolute limit in order win if you believe that the rest are suffering at least as much as you are. If you are riding clean and think that others are benefitting from doping, that belief seems unsustainable. Given all of this, it is not highly likely that doping is still rife, especially given the almost pathological will to win many riders have, the money at stake and so on?

rick_chasey

Are you happy when you hear a story that can lead to a little doping conspiracy?

Do you feel a little glow of 'I told you so' ?

I appreciate that it's a big part of cycling, more perhaps than it should be, and I take it along with the racing, but I really get the impression that you're not so interested in the sport bit.

BikingBernie

Rick Chasey wrote:

Are you happy when you hear a story that can lead to a little doping conspiracy? Do you feel a little glow of 'I told you so' ? I appreciate that it's a big part of cycling, more perhaps than it should be, and I take it along with the racing, but I really get the impression that you're not so interested in the sport bit.

One reason why doping is still endemic is that there are so many fans willing to engage in the 'willing suspension of disbelief' and play along with the whole charade.

rick_chasey

BikingBernie wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Are you happy when you hear a story that can lead to a little doping conspiracy? Do you feel a little glow of 'I told you so' ? I appreciate that it's a big part of cycling, more perhaps than it should be, and I take it along with the racing, but I really get the impression that you're not so interested in the sport bit.

One reason why doping is still endemic is that there are so many fans willing to engage in the 'willing suspension of disbelief' and play along with the whole charade.

Well duh, the fans watch the sport because they like seeing the sport.

Why follow cycling only to think about doping? That's not why I watch cycling. I watch it because I really enjoy watching the racing and the spectacle. Sure, I'd prefer it if it was all sans juice, but why should I deprive myself of something I enjoy, just because some people might be on the juice?

jerry3571

A little experiment you could do to see how doping works is by riding your Club TTs and then give Blood in the middle of your season and watch your times nose dive. It's a kind of reverse doping; it's taking a Pint of Blood out of your body rather than injecting a Pint of blood in to your body. It's a great experiment! Let me know how you get on.

As far as Gilbert; the results of this year's Classics were a very close copy of another great Classics rider's Spring Campaign; Davide Rebellin!!!! I rest my case your honour.
"I Thank you, thank you, please, stop clapping...your too generous..."

-Jerry

PS- As for Homeopathy, here is a link-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/alter ... ctors.html

jerry3571

PS- Also the main reason I try to remind some Cycling Fans that Pros dope is the soppy fact that I don't like seeing people cry when thier favourite riders get caught for Doping. When a Fan gets all upset and hates the lying B@stard for stringing them along for all that time; well it makes me feel sad.
The "Doubters" here have had their hearts broken long ago and want to save the "Believers" the pain of being let down. We're only do it for you guys. Bless.



-Jerry

No_Ta_Doctor

jerry3571 wrote:

PS- Also the main reason I try to remind some Cycling Fans that Pros dope is the soppy fact that I don't like seeing people cry when thier favourite riders get caught for Doping. When a Fan gets all upset and hates the lying B@stard for stringing them along for all that time; well it makes me feel sad.
The "Doubters" here have had their hearts broken long ago and want to save the "Believers" the pain of being let down. We're only do it for you guys. Bless.



-Jerry

You can stop trying to save my pain, thanks. I'm not 12 years old, I can cope myself.

I stopped watching cycling for 12 years after Festina. I don't idolise any riders.

I do, however, quite like Gilbert for his style. I also think he's as likely as anyone to be riding clean. If he isn't then I'll probably just turn off cycling for another ten years or so.

Aside from being good at cycling there is nothing to suggest Gilbert isn't clean. From various outspoken and apparently heartfelt quotes of his there's a fair amount to suggest he IS clean.

Nothing is certain, I wouldn't bet my life one way or the other, but if the best anyone has got against him is "he's good at cycling" we may as well all give up and go home now.

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

A little experiment you could do to see how doping works is by riding your Club TTs and then give Blood in the middle of your season and watch your times nose dive. It's a kind of reverse doping; it's taking a Pint of Blood out of your body rather than injecting a Pint of blood in to your body. It's a great experiment! Let me know how you get on.

I don't race, but I don't doubt it has effect. But I'm not talking about largely unchecked doping I'm talking about small amounts. If you gave 1/4 a pint would it effect performance? What about a 1/10 of a pint? What about a pin prick? At some point it makes no difference biologically. The same applies to doping. There is an amount of doping that will be too small to make a difference. But what is it? And are some dopers already below that threshold?

jerry3571 wrote:

As far as Gilbert; the results of this year's Classics were a very close copy of another great Classics rider's Spring Campaign; Davide Rebellin!!!! I rest my case your honour.
"I Thank you, thank you, please, stop clapping...your too generous..."

This is hopelessly flawed logic. Correlation does not imply causation.
In 1954 Roger Bannister ran a mile in under four minutes. In sport, these had only been achieved before by horses. Therefore, by your logic, you would have deduced that Roger Bannister was a horse.

jerry3571 wrote:

[PS- As for Homeopathy, here is a link-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/alter ... ctors.html

I'm quite well aware it's bunk. But you earlier said "Drugs work otherwise they wouldn't take them. (Unbeleiveable!)". So why do many people swear by homeopathy, which has been proved to be rubbish?

A lot of doping works, but a little might not.

carl_p

andyrr wrote:

Canyon: At 29 years of age, some observers wonder if Phil Gilbert isn’t on the same path as your fellow Belgian great Eddy Merckx, headed towards becoming a Grand Tour rider.

Was Eddy clean then?

jerry3571

I'm quite well aware it's bunk. But you earlier said "Drugs work otherwise they wouldn't take them. (Unbeleiveable!)". So why do many people swear by homeopathy, which has been proved to be rubbish?

A lot of doping works, but a little might not.

An example of Microdosing- If you dose a little too much Vitamin C for many years it won't probably do too much as it come out in your pee with no cumulative effect. If you take too much Vitamin A, D or E in fairly small amounts it'll probably cause you permenant damage to your body AS it is stored in fat and accumilates to eventually cause irreparable damage.
2 dfferent scenarios for 2 different Vitamins, all in fairly small amounts.
If you take a little too much Iron suppplements in small amounts over a long period of time; it'll kill you.
By yourself thinking that Homeopathy works and Microdosing doesn't defies logic as in some sense they are the same thing. I'm afraid you can't ride 2 Horses at the same time so is Microdosing cr@p or is Homeopathy cr@p?? Both methods are dosing in small amounts to create a positive/negative effect.

-Gilbert will either get caught within a year or two or will lose form within the same period of time; a bit like Boonen. The Vampires will be chasing Gilbert for sure.

-As far as not doing Cycle Racing then...JEEEEZUUUSSS!!!!!!MARY AND JOSEPH!!!!!!!!!!!! that's unforgiveable!!!!

-Jerry

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

I'm quite well aware it's bunk. But you earlier said "Drugs work otherwise they wouldn't take them. (Unbeleiveable!)". So why do many people swear by homeopathy, which has been proved to be rubbish?

A lot of doping works, but a little might not.

By yourself thinking that Homeopathy works

If, from all my mentions of it, you think I believe in homeopathy, then I'm afraid you are either too thick or too perverse to reason with. (I've highlighted bits in my own post, that you quoted, to show where you're going wrong)

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

-As far as not doing Cycle Racing then...JEEEEZUUUSSS!!!!!!MARY AND JOSEPH!!!!!!!!!!!! that's unforgiveable!!!!

I don't have the physiology for it (small VO2, high upper body muscle mass). However, from my avatar, you can see I play hockey. Two of the best posters on here also have never raced (or even cycle - which I do). The manager of Chelsea has never played football.

jerry3571

Ok, this is how EPO miscordosing should work.

If your body pees out or uses 1 unit of EPO a day then your body will have to create 1 EPO unit a day to keep at a steady level. If you inject an additional 1 units a day then you will increase the amount of units of EPO in your body by 1 unit a day. If you do this for 2 weeks then you will have 14 units more in your body. If you are tested then you will have only the 2 units of EPO in your body and not show the markers for all the previous EPO taken. If you took the 14 units in one dose and the EPO limit was 10 units then a postive result would occure as the markers in the blood would still be fresh.
If the EPO has been in the body for some time then the markers seem to disappear and the drug become untraceable. The original EPO stays inthe system for a few weeks until it is exhausted.
The raised levels of red blood cells after altitude training only last a few weeks in the same way. I know that from my own experience; 2 weeks in Sierra Nevada, Spain.

-Jerry

PS- Microdosing works depending on the chemical injected. If you injected sugar solution then this chemical would last a few hours. If you injected vitamin C then this would last about 8 hours. EPO seems to last a few weeks in the body so a cumulative effect can be acheived. Toxins, no matter what dose, once ingested can be permenantly held within the body and build up over a lifetime. Further exposure, even decades later, can add to the levels of toxins within the body.

PS- Get a bike and race it; blimey!!

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

PS- Get a bike and race it; blimey!!

I've got three bikes and I ride them. I've even done a Sportif and a triathlon. I'm just no good (and now 39).

I'm too busy running a successful national league hockey club to spend time trying to dip below 30 minutes in a 10TT.

PS I think microdosing is a little more sophisticated than your method. Beyond either of our comprehensions, and of the riders buying it for a lot of money. I truly believe that there are quite a few cyclists getting scammed.

No_Ta_Doctor

jerry3571 wrote:

Ok, this is how EPO miscordosing should work.

If your body pees out or uses 1 unit of EPO a day then your body will have to create 1 EPO unit a day to keep at a steady level. If you inject an additional 1 units a day then you will increase the amount of units of EPO in your body by 1 unit a day. If you do this for 2 weeks then you will have 14 units more in your body. If you are tested then you will have only the 2 units of EPO in your body and not show the markers for all the previous EPO taken. If you took the 14 units in one dose and the EPO limit was 10 units then a postive result would occure as the markers in the blood would still be fresh.
If the EPO has been in the body for some time then the markers seem to disappear and the drug become untraceable. The original EPO stays inthe system for a few weeks until it is exhausted.
The raised levels of red blood cells after altitude training only last a few weeks in the same way. I know that from my own experience; 2 weeks in Sierra Nevada, Spain.

-Jerry

That's an incredible amount of unsupported guesswork.
Firstly, it's unlikely your body removes EPO at a fixed rate of 1 unit per day regardless of how much EPO is in it.

Secondly, as has been mentioned before, the body regulates it's own EPO production according to how much EPO it thinks it needs. Increasing the EPO in your blood artificially causes your body to stop production - this isn't a mere assertion, it's scientifically verified.

Lastly your own calculations show a problem in your thinking - you claim a two week course of microdosing will give you "14 units more in your body" and the next sentence you say "you will have only the 2 units of EPO in your body". That seems to be having your cake AND eating it.

I don't know whether micro-dosing works. From what I've heard it's used to mask the effects of blood transfusions, not to actually boost hemocrit.

What does seem likely, as has been discussed many times, is that the biological passport has both capped the returns for doping and made doping a far more complex and expensive affair. The economics are shifting - it's more expensive for smaller gains.

PS - your repeated inability to understand Rich's point about homeopathy doesn't bode well for this discussion.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

He meant me. I'm sure of it ;-)

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

He's obviously talking about me.

I always fail to understand what riding a bike and being a fan of the sport have to do with each other. Lots of people love football and don't play football. Or tennis. Or rugby. Or cricket.

calvjones

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

He's obviously talking about me.

Ahem. I'm flattered 8)

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

He's obviously talking about me.

I actually was in your case (and AFX). I would have included the rest of you, but I had no idea if you ride bikes or not.

verylonglegs

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Two of the best posters on here also have never raced

Aw, thanks very much Rich :P

He's obviously talking about me.

I always fail to understand what riding a bike and being a fan of the sport have to do with each other. Lots of people love football and don't play football. Or tennis. Or rugby. Or cricket.

Equally, having actually performed at the top level does not automatically guarantee you are able to provide any useful insight or observations to those that have not. Jamie Redknapp for example.