Racetrack improvements - CS8

jzed

As the "improvements" start to take shape - what do people think?

I drove along Millbank tonight* and struck me that as a driver there is a lot less room and cyclists will be closer to the traffic. As a driver and cyclist I'm mystified by the logic of reducing road space and increasing pavement space (how many pedestrians do you see on Millbank? Are they creating more space for protesters?). Will motorists, now down to one lane, expect cyclists to stick to the designated cycle lane, are they more likely to get frustrated with cyclists, as they only have one lane and maybe will have more congestion.

What is the point of creating pedestrian crossings that now jut into the road? What is the point of the blue cycle lanes in Battersea if they only last 10 feet between parking spaces? Who comes up with these plans? Do they canvass cyclists? If so anyone been canvassed?

Was taking shirts into the office so spare the stoning

kurako

I've pondered it a lot myself. CS7 took fairly open stretches of road with the odd dodgy junction (Clapham Common/ Rookery Road, Stockwell Roundabout spring to mind) and created narrower stretches of road for cars and segregated (albeit only by a a blue line here and there) stretches for bikes. The end result being not enough space for anyone, cars getting p!ssed off cos you're not in the cycle lane and way too many close passes because there's a dividing line of invincibility/ invisibility.

The thinking seems to be that all cyclists are like Boris, content to cruise around at low speed and in need of protection. The idea that the safest option is to provide more space seems to be alien to the planners. I dread to think what they've done to Milbank. I don't really have much cause to go that way as I'm currently Tooting<-->Knightbridge.

greg66_tri_v2.0

JZed wrote:

As a driver and cyclist I'm mystified by the logic of reducing road space and increasing pavement space (how many pedestrians do you see on Millbank? Are they creating more space for protesters?).

Couldn't agree more. It's utterly mystifying. And even more baffling is that they are not just reclaiming roadspace from the pavement; the island in the middle of the road has been widened. WTF that's for?

(I should make my disclosure here: I also can't see a lot of point in bus lanes. I certainly can't see the point in 24/7 bus lanes, and I really can't see why (eg on the south side of the river, where the new US embassy is to be built) the bus lanes need to be 7-7, 7 days a week. Why does a lane need to be closed ot traffic at 8am on a Sunday morning? There are fcuk all buses running along there at the best of times)

Part of me wonders whether some of these civil engineering projects were put in place by the outgoing government as a means of doing little more than spending the current govt's money.

jzed

Greg66 wrote:

And even more baffling is that they are not just reclaiming roadspace from the pavement; the island in the middle of the road has been widened. WTF that's for?

Assume they'll put boris bike stations there - like the other stupid locations where they sit them in the road so people pull them directly out into traffic. Wonder how much the muppet who is designing all this is getting? Fair whack I guess.

Specialized Needs

JZed wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

And even more baffling is that they are not just reclaiming roadspace from the pavement; the island in the middle of the road has been widened. WTF that's for?

Assume they'll put boris bike stations there - like the other stupid locations where they sit them in the road so people pull them directly out into traffic. Wonder how much the muppet who is designing all this is getting? Fair whack I guess.

There is already a BB station outside Millbank Tower, northside. Actually, there is room on the southern pavement for a BB station without the need to widen the pavement.

tgotb

I think what they're trying to do (Eastbound, at least) is to change from two lanes shared between cars and bikes, to one lane for cars and one for bikes. There was never going to be space for two lanes of cars and a decent-width bike lane, and I reckon this isn't a bad compromise, at least for the nodders.

Westbound, I'm not so sure...

cjcp

You know those artist's impression drawings on big poster boards on housing developments to give you an idea of what they're doing? Well, we need one of those for Millbank. I just don't get the increased pavement. Is it for the river boats?

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peleton.

jzed

cjcp wrote:

You know those artist's impression drawings on big poster boards on housing developments to give you an idea of what they're doing? Well, we need one of those for Millbank. I just don't get the increased pavement. Is it for the river boats?

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

River Boats :? Surely like cylists they're banned from the pavement?

Specialized Needs

Is there room even for 1+1 lanes through the pedestrian lights between the Tate and Millbank Tower? It's been a couple of weeks since I've been that direction. Last time it was still all cordoned off by the Tate for the road works. It'll be 'interesting' westbound on Millbank if they retain the coach parking...

tgotb

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

The flip side is that, now it's warming up a bit, there are a lot more of those Vespa durneys...

jonginge

cjcp wrote:

You know those artist's impression drawings on big poster boards on housing developments to give you an idea of what they're doing? Well, we need one of those for Millbank. I just don't get the increased pavement. Is it for the river boats?

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

This

Specialized Needs

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

And this is a bad thing...?

sketchley

Are the going to make the pavement duel use like other stretches of the ebankment. That maybe the reason for wider pavements.

cjcp

Specialized Needs wrote:

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

And this is a bad thing...?

Sort of. I'm not very enthusiastic off the lights and like to take my time. Now, it's a bit more "CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!"

jzed

Specialized Needs wrote:

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

And this is a bad thing...?

Not a bad thing - but whereas before cyclists used the left hand lane, and there was always space in the left hand lane to pass nodders or partake in some SCR without swinging out into the traffic, now the left lane will be a narrower cycle lane and moving right will be into the second (only lane).

Presumably when budgets are tight - it would have been easier and cheaper to leave the staus quo and just put some blue paint down. Suppose someone has to keep the private contractors in business. There were certainly enough of them out last night. How many people does it take to paint 100m of the road blue?

tgotb

JZed wrote:

How many people does it take to paint 100m of the road blue?

Quite a few; they have to work in very short shifts, like the engineers at Fukushima, to avoid being permanently blinded by the dazzling blue paint...

Specialized Needs

Sketchley wrote:

Are the going to make the pavement duel use like other stretches of the ebankment. That maybe the reason for wider pavements.

This is my concern. I might imagine it happening (bidirectional, of course) on the river bank side from opposite the end of Thames House, where the pavement widens, down to VB lights, if it weren't for all of the trees and street furniture.

Surely there is a planning application on the Westminster council site somewhere?

Specialized Needs

JZed wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

And this is a bad thing...?

...

My comment was a touch tongue in cheek. It needed an emoticon really

Sewinman

The blue stretch of paint east bound on Battersea Park Road was being used by numerous mopeds this morning to filter up the inside of the queing traffic. Are they allowed to use it?

Specialized Needs

Sewinman wrote:

The blue stretch of paint east bound on Battersea Park Road was being used by numerous mopeds this morning to filter up the inside of the queing traffic. Are they allowed to use it?

Is it on the main road? Is it sectioned off from the main traffic flow by a solid white line?

Even if it is a mandatory bike lane (that is: mandatory for others to keep out, not for bikes to keep in), who is likely to enforce it on a regular basis (think ASLs)?

sketchley

Specialized Needs wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

The blue stretch of paint east bound on Battersea Park Road was being used by numerous mopeds this morning to filter up the inside of the queing traffic. Are they allowed to use it?

Is it on the main road? Is it sectioned off from the main traffic flow by a solid white line?

Even if it is a mandatory bike lane (that is: mandatory for others to keep out, not for bikes to keep in), who is likely to enforce it on a regular basis (think ASLs)?

Think mandatory bike lane on Embankment.

jzed

Sketchley wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

The blue stretch of paint east bound on Battersea Park Road was being used by numerous mopeds this morning to filter up the inside of the queing traffic. Are they allowed to use it?

Is it on the main road? Is it sectioned off from the main traffic flow by a solid white line?

Even if it is a mandatory bike lane (that is: mandatory for others to keep out, not for bikes to keep in), who is likely to enforce it on a regular basis (think ASLs)?

Think mandatory bike lane on Embankment.

I ended up shouting at a woman on a Green Ninja with Italian plates today who was wobbling in the cycle lane , drifting left and right and blocking the ASLs - went something like "Get out of the ******* cycle lane you ******* ****, what the **** do you think the cycle lane is for, you're in my ******* way. Why don't you pay ******* attention to where your ****** going". She looked at me and said something like "Italian - no understand English". Typical.

Then nearly face planted the back of a black cab who suddenly decided to brake and turn left at the last minute. That one went something along the lines of "what the **** are you doing you ******** ****".

I name today "Tourettes day".

sketchley

JZed wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

The blue stretch of paint east bound on Battersea Park Road was being used by numerous mopeds this morning to filter up the inside of the queing traffic. Are they allowed to use it?

Is it on the main road? Is it sectioned off from the main traffic flow by a solid white line?

Even if it is a mandatory bike lane (that is: mandatory for others to keep out, not for bikes to keep in), who is likely to enforce it on a regular basis (think ASLs)?

Think mandatory bike lane on Embankment.

I ended up shouting at a woman on a Green Ninja with Italian plates today who was wobbling in the cycle lane , drifting left and right and blocking the ASLs - went something like "Get out of the ******* cycle lane you ******* ****, what the **** do you think the cycle lane is for, you're in my ******* way. Why don't you pay ******* attention to where your ****** going". She looked at me and said something like "Italian - no understand English". Typical.

Then nearly face planted the back of a black cab who suddenly decided to brake and turn left at the last minute. That one went something along the lines of "what the **** are you doing you ******** ****".

I name today "Tourettes day".

Yesterday was Tourettes day for me. In the morning got shouted at by a little man in huge 4x4 pick up truck, who when callenged call me a fat c*nt. I did remember the Shane Warne response this time he was none too impressed with that. He didn't like being called a "little man" when he tried to drive in to me either. Propper swear moment from me. Still got me motiviated for the next bit of commute went proper fast!

DonDaddyD

What's happening to the Embankment now?

There are more cycle lanes? Have they started the one that is supposed to go from Aldgate to Barking (well, now Stratford as Newham Council dragged its heels)?

Basically 2 things:

1). Increase pavement = Olympics and accomodating what will be more tourists in London.

2). In London, don't drive a car. They're making it as difficult as possible to drive, own or even park a car in London. FACT. Still want to drive? Single file.

kurako

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... hedule.pdf

I haven't got time to read it all but I wouldn't be surprised if its lots of blue paint and some bigger ASLs for cars and mopeds to ignore.

Wrath Rob

I'll reserve judgement until they finish it. Personally, I think if they make the lane wide enough for cyclists to pass 2 or 3 abreast safely it shouldn't be an issue.

What I'd really like to see is someone police the bike lane on Embankment from Westminster to Embankment Tube heading east. I royally fed up with dohpeds getting in the way along there...

rjsterry

cjcp wrote:

Specialized Needs wrote:

cjcp wrote:

The reduced space means that I have found myself putting the hammer down a bit more than normal to get ahead of the VB peloton.

And this is a bad thing...?

Sort of. I'm not very enthusiastic off the lights and like to take my time. Now, it's a bit more "CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE!"

I quite enjoy that bit, although as a regular user of CS7, I have to agree with the criticisms above. Oddly the bit on Clapham Common where there is no separate lane, but large blue logos in the middle of each lane at regular intervals as a kind of 'reminder' to motorists.

Origamist

Wrath Rob wrote:

I'll reserve judgement until they finish it. Personally, I think if they make the lane wide enough for cyclists to pass 2 or 3 abreast safely it shouldn't be an issue.

On the CS8 plans, the cycle lane width fluctuates along Grosvenor Road and Millbank. However, much of it does appear to be 2m - 2.5m wide (some bits are narrower and a few stretches are wider). Obviously, riding two abreast/overtaking is easier in lanes that are closer to 3m, but it's generally held that two same-direction cyclists need 2.5m. The majority of CS7 is a measly 1.5m.

greg66_tri_v2.0

It is clearer now what's going on eastbound by Millbank. There used to be two lanes for cars and enough additional space for bikes to ride two abreast. Now there is enough space for one lane or cars and bikes to ride three abreast.

And an almighty island in the middle of the road, that serves no useful purpose.

And that new bit of jutting out pavement westbound just after LBR is genius, too.

It is (was?) safe to ride fast along there Because it was wide, straight and the traffic moved quite fast. Squeezing the cars will hurt us (=Cavendish wannabees) too.

rjsterry

Noticed they've re-jigged the lanes on Chelsea Bridge as well. Looks like it's going to be 2 lanes + cycle lane northbound and a single lane southbound (without cycle lane :? ).

Ian.B

My first experience of riding on the blue stuff. 1st impression is it's very bright, not sure that a long stretch of it in the sunshine will be very easy on the eye.

I agree that most of Millbank would have been better left alone, but a cycle lane along the last eastbound stretch leading up to LBR will be a big improvement.