boycott speedplay?

neeb

Don't know if anyone has been following this on weightweenies:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=80010

Arguably a slight overreaction / scapegoating mentality judging by some of the posts, but it does sound as if speedplay have been using some seriously heavy-handed tactics; basically, threatening legal action against people in the States selling bearing replacements and even second-hand pedals on ebay.

sungod

people at speedplay are clearly being twunts, but plenty of companies act like this

if you let someone else use your trademark then over time you risk losing control of it, speedplay is simply defending it's rights, albeit rather boorishly

imho there's more to worry about in the world

majormantra

Been watching this with interest. I'll likely be sticking with Speedplays for the time being as they work well for me but I have to say they sound like a-holes.

EKIMIKE

It is OTT but that's tough crap. That's the society we've endorsed and created. Speedplay are protecting their product/IP albeit not in the most friendly way. Personally I think their conduct is awful.

People won't boycott the product unless it's a poor product. Simple. Unfortunately it seems Speedplay have a pretty good product which is in demand.

geebee2

People won't boycott the product unless it's a poor product. Simple. Unfortunately it seems Speedplay have a pretty good product which is in demand.

I think you are over-generalising there. Sure not everyone will, but personally I won't be buying any speedplay products until they mend their ways. I doubt I'm the only one.

TuckerUK

Hello?

We're talking about an American company right? America. You know the country that refuses to recognise the legal arm of the UN and it's own conviction by them. An outlaw country. A country that practices mass infant gentital mutilation. A country that executes people legally using techniques perfected by the Nazis, the same Nazis who they funded to explore eugenics in the 1930s.

Reality check please.

EKIMIKE

geebee2 wrote:

I think you are over-generalising there. Sure not everyone will, but personally I won't be buying any speedplay products until they mend their ways. I doubt I'm the only one.

Speedpay don't care. You account for very little of their revenue. They could no doubt afford to lose 50-100 customers, even if that many decide to 'boycott' them because of this. Point being, if you ride Speedplay pedals and you've read about this incident, you'll probably continue to ride them. And if you wanted a pair of Speedplay's before seeing this article, you probably will still get them.

All credit to you if you have such a strong moral rudder. Fact is, and yes i am generalising, deliberately, our society has very little moral rudder and will use a product regardless of the (non)ethical practices of the company making that product.

Sucks, but it's the overwhelming trend. And Speedplay pedals are highly desirable as it happens.

neeb

EKIMIKE wrote:

Speedpay don't care. You account for very little of their revenue. They could no doubt afford to lose 50-100 customers, even if that many decide to 'boycott' them because of this. Point being, if you ride Speedplay pedals and you've read about this incident, you'll probably continue to ride them. And if you wanted a pair of Speedplay's before seeing this article, you probably will still get them.

I'm more with geebee2 on this. I'm a speedplay zero user, but in this case there is a workable middle ground - avoid unnecessary purchases from speedplay until they revise their stance. Use the 3rd party rebuild kits/instructions, make the pedals last as long as possible and buy second-hand when you can.

I'm not convinced that a mass boycott by a significant percentage of the internet bike community wouldn't have an effect. Speedplay pedals are selling to a niche market, many members of which browse internet forums. You don't get speedplay pedals fitted to off-the-peg mass market bikes. Increasingly online communities have leverage that enables them to stand up to the worst excesses of cynical business practices. Not in the sense of "these guys are evil, let's do some damage", more simply using organised purchasing power to make it clear what is and what is not acceptable, and to constrain companies to behave fairly and responsibly when they step over the mark. If speedplay come back with an official apology and change of approach next week, I'll be the first to consider a new pair of zeros.

It's interesting that whenever these "internet forums vs. big business" debates come up, there are always people coming out with the line "yes, it sucks, but we can't do anything about it, company x doesn't care and we are a tiny percentage of their customer base so we may as well keep buying product Y". Obviously sowing this sort of disillusionment is potentially in the interests of the company concerned, as it can diffuse any organised consumer protest.

Mass consumer opinion DOES matter, and the internet is increasingly more "massive". That thread on WW already has over 6000 views at time of typing.

All credit to you if you have such a strong moral rudder. Fact is, and yes i am generalising, deliberately, our society has very little moral rudder and will use a product regardless of the (non)ethical practices of the company making that product.

Sucks, but it's the overwhelming trend. And Speedplay pedals are highly desirable as it happens.

I take your point, but one of the major culprits in the lack of moral direction in society is cynicism - the feeling that because things are (or appear to be) the way they are, there isn't any point taking a stand even if you agree with it in principle. I strongly suspect that this sort of cynicism is partially created intentionally by people who have vested interests in preventing organised protest (I'm not accusing you of that obviously!)

imho there's more to worry about in the world

Absolutely, totally agree!! But there's no harm in it, and it might be good practice for taking stands on issues that matter a lot more...

geebee2

Speedpay don't care. You account for very little of their revenue.

People like me account for nearly all of their revenue.

Most new customers are going to check the internet sites before buying a Speedplay pedal.

A Ratner moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner

If Speedplay get a bad internet reputation they will go bust. Another reason I won't buy from them until they clear this up ( e.g. fire whoever sent the letter and announce they are cleaning up their act ).

sbmungo

Having just purchased a pair of speedplay,s form ebay nearly new at a nice price. I was surprised by how simple they actually are. As for purchasing their grease gun and other associated items for the maintenance thereof, well what can I say but just another example of exaggerated prices by the cycling industry as a whole. I think its fantastic that this guy fixed his own pedal and I would be more than happy to purchase a DIY kit. Does anyone know where I can get one?

EKIMIKE

Maybe you're focussing too much on the apparent cynicism of what i said above. My point is more the fact that they appear to have a great product.

They sponsor many pro teams, the product is seemingly unique in the market, it works well and they are by all means a popular choice albeit pretty damn expensive (couldn't afford them myself). I simply don't see that people would reject them all round because of this story.

I get what you're saying though and that's fine, consumer action is great and keeps companies in check more or less. In this particular situation, considering the specifics, i disagree that much will happen to Speedplay.

Maybe if things continued this way for Speedplay then i could see people getting pretty hostile to the idea of buying a Speedplay product. Equally, if this was a court judgment instead of a forum story then i could see consumer action being pretty strong.

Anyway, thumbs down to Speedplay, i read that thread last night as it happens and it's pretty shocking from way the dude describes it. But remember, it's only his side of the story we have.

simon_e

EKIMIKE wrote:

It is OTT but that's tough crap. That's the society we've endorsed and created.

Maybe you have but I'm not on the same train.

Anyone with some idea of ethics or the limits of acceptable behaviour can decide that they won't play along. If someone here decides not to buy Speedplay because he/she thinks they are out of order then that is perfectly sound behaviour. I boycott products from companies that wilfully contravene what I feel are basic ethical values. They probably don't care and I'm only one person but I can only do what I think is right. If every one person who cares does something about it then it has a huge amount of momentum. Conversely, nothing ever gets fixed if you do nothing about it. If I just keep buying their stuff I'm endorsing their behaviour, but I refuse to do that. I'm a person with values and a mind of my own, I'm not a frigging puppet of any company's marketing department.

ADIHEAD

Sorry don't get it, you invent a great product, and try to protect it's reputation by preventing potentially inferior replacement parts being used. What's wrong with that?

Problem is we live in the ebay culture, where the true value of premium products is being undermined. I don't see a problem with creating a premium brand, then protecting it. How many people complaining own Apple products? Nuff said

neeb

ADIHEAD wrote:

Sorry don't get it, you invent a great product, and try to protect it's reputation by preventing potentially inferior replacement parts being used. What's wrong with that?

Problem is we live in the ebay culture, where the true value of premium products is being undermined. I don't see a problem with creating a premium brand, then protecting it. How many people complaining own Apple products? Nuff said

Nothing wrong with trying to protect the reputation of your products by reasonable means, within the bounds of the control you can reasonably expect to have over them. If I have bought a physical product I am entitled to do what I want with it however, it belongs to me. I can modify it in any way I see fit for my own purposes, as long as I don't expect it to be covered by warranties or to hold the manufacturer responsible for any problems that may arise. Similarly I have a right to buy parts to allow me to do that, and other people have a right to sell them to me for that purpose, provided that they do not misrepresent these as genuine/ original.

I like the ebay culture. It's only a problem if you are not prepared to research what you are buying and take responsibility for your purchase decisions.

flasher

ADIHEAD wrote:

How many people complaining own Apple products? Nuff said

Go to ebay, you can buy 3rd party batteries and chargers for Apple lap tops, you can open Apple comps up and replace HD's, memory etc. without too much trouble, I don't get your point?

As for Speedplay, never used them and doubt I ever will, I think (by the sound of things) they've been very heavy handed and way over the top, considering they're meant to be self-rebuildable!!

neeb

Interesting also that Oakley, who have real problems with their brand being misrepresented, presumably aren't serving lawsuits on all of the people currently selling jawbones with crappy fake lenses on ebay. These sellers make it clear that the lenses have been replaced and are not made by Oakley. Personally I think anyone who buys them is an idiot, as the quality of the lenses are more than half of the reason for buying Oakleys, but they still have a right to do so if they want to (and the sellers have a right to sell them).

sungod

Simon E wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

It is OTT but that's tough crap. That's the society we've endorsed and created.

Maybe you have but I'm not on the same train.

Anyone with some idea of ethics or the limits of acceptable behaviour can decide that they won't play along. If someone here decides not to buy Speedplay because he/she thinks they are out of order then that is perfectly sound behaviour. I boycott products from companies that wilfully contravene what I feel are basic ethical values. They probably don't care and I'm only one person but I can only do what I think is right. If every one person who cares does something about it then it has a huge amount of momentum. Conversely, nothing ever gets fixed if you do nothing about it. If I just keep buying their stuff I'm endorsing their behaviour, but I refuse to do that. I'm a person with values and a mind of my own, I'm not a frigging puppet of any company's marketing department.

you posted a message on this forum, so you use a computer, you use the internet, and i reckon there's a fair chance you have a mobile phone

one way or another that means you are using the products of large companies that rely on exploitation of low cost labour in china, a number of whom found the life in those conditions so unbearable that they killed themselves

computers and mobile phones use technoloigies reliant on rare earths, these are extracted using methods that cause massive environmental damage, not because it's the only way to do it, but because it's the cheap way to do it

presumably you consider these things ethically acceptable so that you can enjoy the product at a good price, otherwise you'd be boycotting pretty much everything

redddraggon

I've been boycotting Speedplay for years

neeb

you posted a message on this forum, so you use a computer, you use the internet, and i reckon there's a fair chance you have a mobile phone

one way or another that means you are using the products of large companies that rely on exploitation of low cost labour in china, a number of whom found the life in those conditions so unbearable that they killed themselves

computers and mobile phones use technoloigies reliant on rare earths, these are extracted using methods that cause massive environmental damage, not because it's the only way to do it, but because it's the cheap way to do it

presumably you consider these things ethically acceptable so that you can enjoy the product at a good price, otherwise you'd be boycotting pretty much everything

This argument is the pernicious tool of those who would have people do nothing moral on the grounds that we can never be perfect. It has been thoroughly debunked by a number of moral philosophers over the last few hundred years (was Hobbes the first?)

We all live in an imperfect society, and in order to exist in it we have to make moral compromises. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make moral choices whenever we are able to, given our context, needs, and abilities. Not being able to do everything is never a valid excuse for not doing anything in particular.

You can research the relative moral/environmental record of the company you buy your mobile phone or computer from and make a decision on that basis, and I would encourage anyone to do so.

P_Tucker

sungod wrote:

Simon E wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

It is OTT but that's tough crap. That's the society we've endorsed and created.

Maybe you have but I'm not on the same train.

Anyone with some idea of ethics or the limits of acceptable behaviour can decide that they won't play along. If someone here decides not to buy Speedplay because he/she thinks they are out of order then that is perfectly sound behaviour. I boycott products from companies that wilfully contravene what I feel are basic ethical values. They probably don't care and I'm only one person but I can only do what I think is right. If every one person who cares does something about it then it has a huge amount of momentum. Conversely, nothing ever gets fixed if you do nothing about it. If I just keep buying their stuff I'm endorsing their behaviour, but I refuse to do that. I'm a person with values and a mind of my own, I'm not a frigging puppet of any company's marketing department.

you posted a message on this forum, so you use a computer, you use the internet, and i reckon there's a fair chance you have a mobile phone

one way or another that means you are using the products of large companies that rely on exploitation of low cost labour in china, a number of whom found the life in those conditions so unbearable that they killed themselves

computers and mobile phones use technoloigies reliant on rare earths, these are extracted using methods that cause massive environmental damage, not because it's the only way to do it, but because it's the cheap way to do it

presumably you consider these things ethically acceptable so that you can enjoy the product at a good price, otherwise you'd be boycotting pretty much everything

Nice. But the important thing is that these things don't directly affect me, so why do I care?

If someone hasn't been exploited then I'm overpaying, godammit.

neeb

Nice. But the important thing is that these things don't directly affect me, so why do I care?

If someone hasn't been exploited then I'm overpaying, godammit.

I fail to get whatever ironic/sarcastic point I hope you were trying to make there,,,

ADIHEAD

Flasher wrote:

ADIHEAD wrote:

How many people complaining own Apple products? Nuff said

Go to ebay, you can buy 3rd party batteries and chargers for Apple lap tops, you can open Apple comps up and replace HD's, memory etc. without too much trouble, I don't get your point?

As for Speedplay, never used them and doubt I ever will, I think (by the sound of things) they've been very heavy handed and way over the top, considering they're meant to be self-rebuildable!!

My point is they're the only company which makes mp3 playing equipment that you can't drag and drop files onto, because the want you to use the i-tunes c%^p. They charge over £100 for an extra 8gig and you make the warranty invalid if you try and upgrade it yourself. If your battery dies halfway through a contract, you have to pay £70 and send the phone off for a new one. Need I go on?

Point is though Apple to this to control the brand and tp keep it premium, which I'd say they've achieved. Mavic have been trying to do the same with their product distribution. Problem for them is we can buy their products cheap via foreign distributors.

Don't get me wrong, I buy stuff at the cheapest price I can, from ebay or whoever. But as inventor and manufacturer you should have the right to control your brand if you choose so. As long as customers know what they're buying into in the first place. Which perhaps is where Speedplay have gone wrong, and are probably being a little heavy handed over :roll:

neeb

But as inventor and manufacturer you should have the right to control your brand if you choose so

Look, it's quite simple - the manufacturer has/should have rights to control the brand in certain ways, not in others. Apple's policy may be overly controlling (I avoid them like the plague myself for that reason) but they are not trying to use legal means to stop you doing what you want with the product after you have bought it, only selling an inherently limited product in the first place. It's your choice as a consumer if you want to buy it. Whether it has been fairly described and/or is fit for purpose is a different issue.

Levi don't have the power to stop you patching your jeans because it might make their brand look bad, or to stop your local shop from selling you needles and thread to do it with. Nor should speedplay be telling people they can't modify their pedals or sell them on ebay.

Rushie

It's a real shame that Speedplay are behaving this way. I love my Frogs and have used them for years, but will have to have a long think about whether I use them in future.

EKIMIKE

Simon E wrote:

Maybe you have but I'm not on the same train.

Anyone with some idea of ethics or the limits of acceptable behaviour can decide that they won't play along. If someone here decides not to buy Speedplay because he/she thinks they are out of order then that is perfectly sound behaviour. I boycott products from companies that wilfully contravene what I feel are basic ethical values. They probably don't care and I'm only one person but I can only do what I think is right. If every one person who cares does something about it then it has a huge amount of momentum. Conversely, nothing ever gets fixed if you do nothing about it. If I just keep buying their stuff I'm endorsing their behaviour, but I refuse to do that. I'm a person with values and a mind of my own, I'm not a frigging puppet of any company's marketing department.

Ok you might not have and believe me i don't like it but the overwhelming portion of society in this country has so you'll have to stick it i'm afraid. I'd suggest an ample protest would go much further than boycotting a high end pedal manufacturer for lavish bicycles. Oh the irony.

Buying a good product is not being a puppet to some companies marketing department. It simply means you want the product... because it's good, it works. Speedplay pedals so happen to be very good.

I'm just not a fan of false moralistic crusades against 'evil' corporations who for whatever reason seem to have attained a higher level of 'evilness' through the anecdotal evidence of some dude on an internet forum. Come off it. You're not saving the world. You're not on any moral high ground. The fact that someone could be in a position to boycott Speedplay says far too much about their financial status (*this bit isn't personal*) to dismiss my point on the basis of them not buying into our consumer capitalist society.

neeb

EKIMIKE wrote:

Ok you might not have and believe me i don't like it but the overwhelming portion of society in this country has so you'll have to stick it i'm afraid. I'd suggest an ample protest would go much further than boycotting a high end pedal manufacturer for lavish bicycles. Oh the irony.

Buying a good product is not being a puppet to some companies marketing department. It simply means you want the product... because it's good, it works. Speedplay pedals so happen to be very good.

I'm just not a fan of false moralistic crusades against 'evil' corporations who for whatever reason seem to have attained a higher level of 'evilness' through the anecdotal evidence of some dude on an internet forum. Come off it. You're not saving the world. You're not on any moral high ground. The fact that someone could be in a position to boycott Speedplay says far too much about their financial status (*this bit isn't personal*) to dismiss my point on the basis of them not buying into our consumer capitalist society.

Yet more irrelevant distraction attempting to divert attention from the issue.

I reiterate - IT'S A SIMPLE MATTER.

Q. Do you think speedplay should be allowed to stop people modifying their pedals, selling parts to do this, and selling second-hand pedals on ebay? Yes or no?

If no, exercise some control as a consumer and buy something else instead. If you are so inclined. No-one is obliged to.

"Saving the world" or any other moral issues have nothing to do with it. It's not a "false moral crusade", it's just being an empowered consumer.

EKIMIKE

Please, let me re-iterate i think Speedplay are in the wrong. Please do not confuse what i am saying as condoning their practices.

To be honest, i just think as a strong willed consumer, would it not be more appropriate/subversive to continue to modify Speedplay pedals and spread the instructions on how to do so rather than attempt a feeble (IMO) boycott.

The guy on WW just got a bit too big for his boots in the eyes of Speedplay, why submit to their aggressive crap with a boycott that is unlikely to blemish their balance sheets. You don't need some fella from the US to sell you bearings on ebay. Do it yourself. That's simple and indeed far more effective in giving Speeplay a hard time. If you boycott them they simply don't have to deal with 'the problem'.

But i admit, i am sceptical. How many people here would actually be willing to service their Speedplay pedals (not just say they might consider it)? How many are actually going to unscrew their Speeplay pedals, flog them on ebay and switch to another brand? Fact 1 - Speedplay pedals are a pain to service - heaitng bolts e.t.c. Fact 2 - Speedplay pedals are one of the best on the market. Fact 3 (sort of) - If you're well off enough to buy Speedplay pedals then you'll probably get a new pair when they break instead of getting your hands dirty replacing bearing and heating up bolts (unless you're a wealthy engineer )

It's forum land. I, myself could subscribe to this boycott even though i've never bought a pair of Speedplay's - pretty stupid eh. It's a total none issue and non action. I just laugh at the seeming moral currency subscribing to a boycott against a big bad company gives to people who in reality are buying a premium product - £150 pedals. I might be wrong but it still makes me laugh. It's not a serious issue, but it is funny to see the reaction.

Just for a laugh, type Speedplay into ebay and see how many people are rushing to sell their Speedplay pedals, let alone because of this story. Ha. :roll:

NWLondoner

I am not even going to try getting too involved in the legal battle as it is way above my pay grade, but if your are selling Patented goods then i do think Speedplay may have a case. Although i do think they have gone overboard.

I use speedplay Zero's and will continue to use them as for me they are the perfect pedal.

Double sided with adjustable float. Not too awkward to engage and disengage plus the cleats are very easy to service.

Monty Dog

Speedplay appear to making a pretty good attempt at inadvertantly undermining one of the few USP's for what is an over-priced and not very durable product - they deliberately 'pitch' the fact that it is rebuildable (using standard, commercsally available bearings, screws etc) and then get all ar$ey when somebody publishes the fact online. The fact that they also tried to sue BeBop and settled out of court demonstrates a degree of heavy-handedness in managing their perceived IPR.

Gazzaputt

Personally after 2 sets coming apart I came to conclusion they are shite.

Been using Look with no issues.

neeb

To be honest, i just think as a strong willed consumer, would it not be more appropriate/subversive to continue to modify Speedplay pedals and spread the instructions on how to do so rather than attempt a feeble (IMO) boycott.

That's actually what I was suggesting in my second post. It's not an either-or thing, you can "boycott" to the extent and in the way you want. Maybe it's just that word that's causing problems here as it has political/subversive connotations.

It's a total none issue and non action. I just laugh at the seeming moral currency subscribing to a boycott against a big bad company gives to people who in reality are buying a premium product - £150 pedals. I might be wrong but it still makes me laugh. It's not a serious issue, but it is funny to see the reaction.

No-one was claiming to be gaining any moral currency, it's the naysayers in this thread who have been trying to elevate the issue into a supposed moral crusade in order to rubbish the idea. Classic straw man. It's not a total "non-issue" though - I don't want these sorts of trends to continue and the sorts of tactics that speedplay are using to become standard practice and accepted. The best way to avoid that is to make it clear as consumers that we at least have opinions about such things. Call it communal self-interest if you like.