Time trial pacing tips required

danowat

I am keen to improve on my TT times of last year, and I am hoping with a combination of training, and a sensible strategy, I want to be able to manage my goal.

I am very new to TT's, only been riding since last April, and only ridden five 10 mile TT's, with a PB of 26:20, and would like to go sub 25, and bigger distances in the future.

Its clear, from both post TT data, and during the actual event that, be it through inexperiance, exuberance, adreniline or something else that I go out way too hard, and suffer because of this.

I know that, ideally, you shouldn't need external aids, and should be able to ride of P.E. and feel (so everyone I know says!), but its hard for someone green to be able to do this, so I am wondering if it would be possible to setup my HRM, which has audible alerts, to warn me of over-exertion?, if this is possible, what sort of %Max would be appropriate for the different parts of the TT?, for example.......

The first 2 miles alert @ X %MHR, then X %MHR for another 2 miles, then go for it? or something along those lines.

Any feedback appreciated

SBezza

Forget about HR, it takes too long for it to respond. I look at the data afterwards, but never during a TT, it is all done on PE, press as hard as I can on the pedals.

You should leave the start line very easy, some say like you are doing a paper round (though I used to ride my paper round as fast as possible as a kid).

Build up the effort over 0.5 to 1 mile, thats not to go really slowly for this distance, just don't push yourself too hard, or it will come back to bite you. Push on the downhill sections, and moderate effort on the uphill sections.

If you have done 20 min intervals on the turbo, you should know what sort of effort you can push

I am not 100% perfect on pacing, and I think it is hard to be unless you ride on power. I am only starting my 3rd year this year, so pretty inexperienced at pacing

A thing that is massively overlooked in TT-ing, is your mental ability, you need to be 100% focussed, and accept it is going to hurt alot, but the faster you pedal the quicker it is over.

danowat

Looks like I am just going to have to try and reign it in a bit!!, what I need is a voice that just screams "easy to start, easy to start", and build up for the first mile or so.

I just don't want what happenend in my last open to happen in the future, I went out way to hard, was physically sick by mile 3, and spent the last 7 miles clinging on by the skin of my teeth!!.

a_n_t

A perfect 10?

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/48182083


Well yeah I could go quicker but it terms of pacing it was spot on!

jgsi

Knowing the course can help a lot.

SBezza

Not a bad trace a_n_t.

To be honest the best way to get faster is to train to go faster, especially for 10's and 25's.

Make sure your training is targetted in the right areas, and push yourself very hard in training.

Pacing will save you time without a shadow of a doubt, but training is the best way to improve. You only get better at this by racing and practising.

PS, you should never feel sick by the 3rd mile, in fact I have never been sick even at 10 miles, perhaps I am not trying hard enough

danowat

Of course, I am not in anyway saying that pacing can, or will, replace training, but its clearly an area that lets me down, and that is something I feel I need to work on.

All the training in the world won't help me if I blow up at mile 3!!!!.

I'll see if I can dig out my last open Garmin data and post it up.

SBezza

How do you judge pace now, or do you just go hell for leather from the go?

ozzzyosborn206

well if you know you start off too hard, just don't do that, resist the temptation to go out the gate full gas, you have done it before and know not to do it so i think use your previous experience if you go by heart rate you will start to get too obsessed with it. When i do tens i start hard then get into a rhythm i know i can keep for more than a ten then in the last 2/3 miles empty the tank

markos1963

Dan after racing against you last season you should be way faster than me on a ten. I did 25'29" so sub 25 for you should be easy. I always try to ride the course if i can, if not i drive it making mental notes as to where hills are and gaps in hedges and what the turn is like. That way I know when to push it more and when to ease off. I always try to put more effort in on any climbs/slopes and recover a bit going down.

danowat

SBezza wrote:

How do you judge pace now, or do you just go hell for leather from the go?

This pretty much, I know I shouldn't, but I just seem to get this mental block that says "10 mile TT, must go as fast as possible as soon as possible".

I guess its a mental discipline thing, and just need to get my head in the right place before the event, and its this that puts me off 25's, 50's etc, hanging on for 7 miles is nothing compared to hanging on for double that!.

@Markos, the thing I found with racing against others is that you can afford to gun it a bit, and then just drop into a pack and pick up a rhythum, with a TT, you are on your own from the get go!.

I've got till March to get my head into it, luckily, my first open is on a local course that makes up part of some of my training routes anyway, so at least I've got that going for me.

ozzzyosborn206

i don't know what other people will say, but i find a 25 easier to pace than a 10 as you know there is no way you can go flat out for the whole time and if you do go off a bit too easy there is plenty of time to ramp the speed up so i wouldn't let this put you off doing 25s however the thought of nearly 2 hours in the tt position puts me off doing a 50

SBezza

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

i don't know what other people will say, but i find a 25 easier to pace than a 10 as you know there is no way you can go flat out for the whole time and if you do go off a bit too easy there is plenty of time to ramp the speed up so i wouldn't let this put you off doing 25s however the thought of nearly 2 hours in the tt position puts me off doing a 50

+1 for the 25 pacing, you just can't go off that hard in a 25 so it is easier to pace in one respect. Yes you have to go hard for an hour, but you can make up so much time at the end if you have paced it right. You will only get better with practice unfortunately, just try different tactics and see what works best for you.

50's are a great distance, the best combination of speed and endurance for me, absolutely love doing 50's, these are easier still to pace, just ride as 2 x 25m TT's

SBezza

markos1963 wrote:

I always try to put more effort in on any climbs/slopes and recover a bit going down.

This is where alot of people lose time though, if you can't get back on the power hard straight away after a climb, then you are losing time. It is better to moderate the effort slightly going up the hill so you don't go into the red, and then hammer it again when at the top. You will lose more time recovering then you will by going ever so slightly slower up the hill.

cyco2

dano....I see nothing wrong in going flat out at the start of a '10'. In time as you adjust you will get the continuity or the adjustment you need to keep the pace going. The '10' TT is virtually a sprint race. After you've done a few you'll understand your body better and get it to settle in.
The thing you have not mentioned though, which is the most important part of a ten, is the warm up and a good knowledge of the course conditions.
The warm up is virtually part of the race and getting it right is not easy because of the distance and timing from the start. Because of the way you start at the moment you need to do a lower level of it in the warm up. It helps your body and mind to adjust to the effort to focus on the test ahead. A turbo is good for this.
A head wind start is not the place to go all out at the beginning. You'll need to settle in straight away and save yourself for the return. They can be fun because I used to go absolutely flat out and blow up, recover at a few mph less, then go flat out again. Doing that I would expect to be going over 30mph+ before blowing up. These things worked for me and help with some really good '10' and '25' times.
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SBezza

cyco2 wrote:

They can be fun because I used to go absolutely flat out and blow up, recover at a few mph less, then go flat out again. Doing that I would expect to be going over 30mph+ before blowing up. These things worked for me and help with some really good '10' and '25' times.
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You would have undoubtedly got better times by not doing that though. The amount of time you lose by easing off is far greater than what you got by going too hard. The fast guys would probably do a faster return than an outbound leg if all things were equal, like the wind, distance etc. And they try and keep an even power profile for the duration of the event.

danowat

Negative splits?, the holy grail of running, I alway used to try and do negative spits in running races (10k and HM's), and it seemed to work quite well, maybe thats something I could try and concentrate on.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its good food for thought.

SBezza

danowat wrote:

Negative splits?, the holy grail of running, I alway used to try and do negative spits in running races (10k and HM's), and it seemed to work quite well, maybe thats something I could try and concentrate on.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, its good food for thought.

That is the theory, though not always as easy as you might have a tailwind out and a headwind back, so obviously the return leg is going to be slower.

I think you need to try and assess the environmental conditions on the day, as well as the course profile, and see where you can perhaps go a little harder, and take it a little easier. It is something you learn with each TT hopefully, I still struggle a little at 10's, but I don't do as many as these, sometimes I think I don't push hard enough on these.

BeaconRuth

SBezza wrote:

The fast guys............ try and keep an even power profile for the duration of the event.

I don't think this is strictly true. The really fast guys and girls have modelled the course gradients mathematically to make the most of the squared relationship between speed and power - which would lead you to use slightly more power on the ups than on the downs.

But for those of us who are mortal, concentrating on not going too hard on the ups and hammering it on the downs is a very good idea because our natural instincts are always to go far too hard on the ups and far too easy on the downs.

Ruth

danowat

BeaconRuth wrote:

But for those of us who are mortal, concentrating on not going too hard on the ups and hammering it on the downs is a very good idea because our natural instincts are always to go far too hard on the ups and far too easy on the downs.

Ruth

Definately agree with that, and thats something else I'll try to alter!

Jeff Jones

Even armed with a powermeter and the Knowledge I still struggle with pacing. I think it's because I have a tendency to think that "this is the day I do a power PB". Every time When I get it right it's nice, but usually a bit hit and miss.

The problem I and I suspect others have in 10s is that the first 5 minutes just don't hurt, even when I am going way too hard. So riding on perceived exertion in that critical period is quite difficult because the difference between just right and too hard is very subtle. And even with the powermeter there telling me I'm 20W above what I usually average for a 10 I can't wind myself in once I get going because it doesn't hurt and "today is the day".

That is until it does start to hurt after about 8 minutes and I start to back off the power. But it's too late and the pain becomes intense by 12 minutes and the remaining 8 or so minutes is agonising despite being 40W less than the pain-free first five minutes. Oops.

Longer TTs are easier although it is still hard to get your head round riding comfortably for the first half of a 25. TTs that start on a climb are really hard to judge.

danowat

Jeff Jones wrote:

The problem I and I suspect others have in 10s is that the first 5 minutes just don't hurt, even when I am going way too hard. So riding on perceived exertion in that critical period is quite difficult because the difference between just right and too hard is very subtle. And even with the powermeter there telling me I'm 20W above what I usually average for a 10 I can't wind myself in once I get going because it doesn't hurt and "today is the day".

Exactly this, which is why I thought having my HRM shouting at me for the first couple of miles might force me to reign it in a bit!!

I also think I've been a little niave when it comes to judging conditions and course profile on the day, the last open started on a slight incline, not only that, but it was pretty windy (25mph I think), and the headwind was on the out stretch, so like has already been said, I didn't take into account the conditions, went for it, blew up, and couldn't capitalize on the return leg, which would have been downhill with a tail wind, it was still a PB, by a few seconds, but I was so much pain, I couldn't even get into the aero position for that last mile or so, its clear with a bit more thought, it could have been a much better day.

It appears I need to be smarter, quite a bit smarter......

cyco2

SBezza wrote:

You would have undoubtedly got better times by not doing that though. The amount of time you lose by easing off is far greater than what you got by going too hard. The fast guys would probably do a faster return than an outbound leg if all things were equal, like the wind, distance etc. And they try and keep an even power profile for the duration of the event.

I did even pace (flat lining) with a HR monitor but mentally it held me back so I TT without it especially when there was a tail wind back. Found I could get in tune with my body. Also, I used to scream out loud to get some adrenalin flowing. This helped me to get up to speed after a hard bit. In a '10' I could only do it twice because that's all I had to use. It did for me what nitrous oxide does in a car. My methods may not work for others but I did find it more interesting than using instruments.
I rode what was aerodynamically the very best design of bike, a Cougar with a 58 tooth chain ring because I couldn't twiddle that well and I couldn't better a 51minute' 25' at 51 years old.
So, if it worked for me then it may be worth trying by others.
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SBezza

cyco2 wrote:

I did even pace (flat lining) with a HR monitor but mentally it held me back so I TT without it especially when there was a tail wind back. .

Your HR should rise progressively throughout the event, otherwise, you have been put out less power as the event went on.

I wouldn't bother looking at a HRM during an event, especially a 10, it doesn't respond quick enough to get reliable feedback from during the event. I look at mine afterwards, and it can be seen that I have either had to back off slightly, if it has dipped, or I have got it better paced with it rising for the duration of the event.

I will know from the pain in my legs if I am pushing too hard, as the burn from the lactate build up tells me I am going too hard, and I may have to back off slightly.

As Jeff has said the start always feels too easy, and it is so easy to push far too hard.

Jeff Jones

danowat wrote:

Exactly this, which is why I thought having my HRM shouting at me for the first couple of miles might force me to reign it in a bit!!

A HRM is not going to do that - there's too much of a lag.

It really comes down to keeping your adrenaline in check until your aerobic system catches up. It's convincing yourself that experiencing pain in the first five minutes (or even the first half) does not make you go faster.

simon_e

Jeff Jones wrote:

It really comes down to keeping your adrenaline in check until your aerobic system catches up. It's convincing yourself that experiencing pain in the first five minutes (or even the first half) does not make you go faster.

Yep, making an effort to hold back seems to work for me. Our club '10' course is quite lumpy and I've found greater consistency and generally quicker times by easing into it (relatively speaking). My fastest time last year came as a bit of a surprise after I felt like I hadn't tried hard enough on the first 4 or 5 miles.

Also if I avoid going too deep on the climbs I have more to give on the downs, as that carries more mph along the next section than I'll ever get by flogging myself up the inclines then trying to recover over the top and down the other side.

This article has helped: http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_fac ... tstrat.htm

jibberjim

Jeff Jones wrote:

It really comes down to keeping your adrenaline in check until your aerobic system catches up. It's convincing yourself that experiencing pain in the first five minutes (or even the first half) does not make you go faster.

I'm not yet utterly convinced that an iso power strategy will lead to highest average power. If you look at 10km running world records they are not run at isopower but with a stronger 1st quarter compared to 3rd quarter. Now pace makers may be changing this but it's consistent across most distance running events.

Of course going away from an iso-power strategy may well harm you more on the bike (wind resistence being much less of an impact at 25km/h of a 10km race compared to 50km/h off a 10.) so you're not penalised much by putting out more power running. But I would like to see how much the physiological reasons behind non-isopower running cross over to cycling.

Of course you're talking seconds over a 10mile TT and even in running there's little point aiming to get that perfect race unless you are going for a world record as the penalty for going a little too hard is so draining as you describe above Jeff.

SteveR_100Milers

Jeff Jones wrote:

Even armed with a powermeter and the Knowledge I still struggle with pacing. I think it's because I have a tendency to think that "this is the day I do a power PB". Every time When I get it right it's nice, but usually a bit hit and miss.

The problem I and I suspect others have in 10s is that the first 5 minutes just don't hurt, even when I am going way too hard. So riding on perceived exertion in that critical period is quite difficult because the difference between just right and too hard is very subtle. And even with the powermeter there telling me I'm 20W above what I usually average for a 10 I can't wind myself in once I get going because it doesn't hurt and "today is the day".

That is until it does start to hurt after about 8 minutes and I start to back off the power. But it's too late and the pain becomes intense by 12 minutes and the remaining 8 or so minutes is agonising despite being 40W less than the pain-free first five minutes. Oops.

Longer TTs are easier although it is still hard to get your head round riding comfortably for the first half of a 25. TTs that start on a climb are really hard to judge.

This is in a nutshell one of the two reasons for potentially getting a power meter. I am usually into the red after half a mile, and form then on its all about bouncing "off the limiter" on the basis that traditional advice is ride a 10 as if your life depended on it from the start. I know my pacing is awful, and am much faster at 25s than 10s so clearly I have been doing something very wrong.

Jeff Jones

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

This is in a nutshell one of the two reasons for potentially getting a power meter. I am usually into the red after half a mile, and form then on its all about bouncing "off the limiter" on the basis that traditional advice is ride a 10 as if your life depended on it from the start. I know my pacing is awful, and am much faster at 25s than 10s so clearly I have been doing something very wrong.

It helps but as I said it's not the be all and end all. You still need a lot of self control.

To Jibberjim: maybe isopower (on a flat windless course) doesn't lead to the highest average power but I'm pretty sure it will get you your best average speed. Anecdotally all of my 10 mile PBs have been set with even pacing, not start hard and finish hard.

simon_e

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

This is in a nutshell one of the two excuses for potentially getting a power meter.

Fixed that for you

I am usually into the red after half a mile, and form then on its all about bouncing "off the limiter"

You're like the first example in the article I linked to. You don't need a power meter, you need to use the brilliant (and free) computer you already have - your brain.

Pokerface

If you think pacing a TT is hard, try pacing a track pursuit effort, where as little as 1/2 a SECOND per lap can mean the difference between finishing strongly and completely blowing up (and we're only talking about 3KM!).

A lesson I seem to be learning on a daily basis. :oops: