XC racing, is lightweight HT the way forward ?

weeksy59

Usual day in the office so sitting and having a debate on this weekends XC race over at Surrey Hills/Swinley forest.

Currently running a rather burly FS Commencal Meta which weighs in about 14 tonnes LOL. It's awsome on the downhills and i adore it..

But...

Should i ideally be running something a bit more on the side of a lightweight HT like a CUBE Acid for these sort of events ?
Obviously there's a certain ammount of semi-techincal stuff in the XC races, but nothing with jumps and rocks etc, just tree roots and berms.

stubs

A lot of top riders use a HT or a FS depending on the conditions. If your just using it for XCracing a racy HT will be fine but it will be a bit limiting if your doing trail riding as well. A light FS is a bit more usable in rougher conditions and a bit more comfy.

El Capitano

TBH, it all depends on the course. I'm fortunate that I have a very light Giant NRS (FS), that I can swap the frame for an identical sized Giant XTC (HT). Out of the two, I must say, I prefer racing shorter events on the HT and longer events (12/24hr) ones on the FS.

weeksy59

stubs wrote:

A lot of top riders use a HT or a FS depending on the conditions. If your just using it for XCracing a racy HT will be fine but it will be a bit limiting if your doing trail riding as well. A light FS is a bit more usable in rougher conditions and a bit more comfy.

I wasn't planning on getting rid of the Meta, more adding to the stable specifically for XC racing purposes. The Meta will still be the Afan/Cwm etc bike.

antfly

I just got a lightweight HT, it really flies.

njee20

Depends on your riding style, lightweight FS for me all the way, more and more of the top guys are on FS these days:

Liam Killeen
Oli Beckingsale
Adrian Lansley
Chris Minter
Jody Crawforth

Off the top of my head, all ride FS, now the weights are much more competitive and the courses are getting bumpier there's more advantage. You can sit in the saddle and spend more time pedalling, rather than being thrown around all over the place, not only is it quicker IMO, it's also less tiring.

I've gone back to a HT for racing twice (once in 2006, and earlier this year for a couple of events) and for me, it's just not as quick.

weeksy59

Price for that sort of HT would be likely to be inhibitive for me. I could get a decent spec Boardman or CUBE lightweight HT 2nd hand for £500 tops. Whereas i would be looking 2x maybe even 3x that for a lightweight HT.

Due to the fact that i'm only just running inside the top 50% at best currently in Open Male, then i don't really see much point in lobbing such a huge ammount of cash at the FS as i don't forsee it lowering my finishing position by that dramatic an ammount.

Thanks for the input mate, i was hoping you'd come along

If you see a knackered bloke on a white Meta5 on Sunday say ello

njee20

I can't resist any thread with 'XC Racing' in the title :-)

I take in the first paragraph you mean FS in the 1st and 3rd instance!?

Try and borrow a light hardtail, you may not find it any quicker than the Meta, they're a very different riding style, you get beaten up much more and they can be very skittish (as can light FS bikes for that matter!) if you find yourself easing off on the descents, then struggling for grip on the climbs then you're unlikely to gain much benefit.

You may benefit more from buying some lighter 'race' wheels, or generally making what you've got a bit more racey.

weeksy59

njee20 wrote:

I can't resist any thread with 'XC Racing' in the title :-)

I take in the first paragraph you mean FS in the 1st and 3rd instance!?

Try and borrow a light hardtail, you may not find it any quicker than the Meta, they're a very different riding style, you get beaten up much more and they can be very skittish (as can light FS bikes for that matter!) if you find yourself easing off on the descents, then struggling for grip on the climbs then you're unlikely to gain much benefit.

You may benefit more from buying some lighter 'race' wheels, or generally making what you've got a bit more racey.

Looked into making mine more lightweight but again for the price required to get a significant loss, it's ridiculous. Simple fact is, the Meta in a large is a big burly beast.

I did some weighing this morning before a small training ride and the wheels came out as follows
2.3kg - Front with Specialized fast trak 2.0 and slime tube
1.87kg - Front with Racing Ralph and standard tub

2.50 - Rear with Spcialized Fast trak, casette and Slime
2.32 - Rear with Specialized with casette and standard tube.

So simply by swapping off from slime tube and fitting my RRalph to the front i've saved 600grm or so. I could probably get another 300 from fiting a Ralph to the rear (which i don't have currently) But then to drop that sort of ammount again means new wheels and something like Hope Pro2 hubs for example... that's £300 of anyones cash.

LAst week it came in about 33.1lb so assuming now it's getting to about 32.5lb.. Really i'd need to be taking 3-4lb off it before i start getting a real significant weight drop...

By the time i've worked out how to drop 3-4lb, then that's probably more than it would cost me to get a whole new bike LOL.

El Capitano

weeksy59 wrote:

By the time i've worked out how to drop 3-4lb, then that's probably more than it would cost me to get a whole new bike LOL.

Yep. I've spent the best part of £2,000 on the NRS this year to shave 3lbs off it.

njee20

Hmmm, yes, in that case a whole new bike may be sensible! Saying that, some Hope Hoops on Crests will likely drop you a massive chunk of weight for a lot less than the cost of any new bike.

There are plenty of deals around at the moment though, a lot of shops are doing Scale 30s for £1400 down from £2000, which is pretty nuts if you could stretch to that.

weeksy59

njee20 wrote:

There are plenty of deals around at the moment though, a lot of shops are doing Scale 30s for £1400 down from £2000, which is pretty nuts if you could stretch to that.

Affording it is one thing.. it being justified is another altogether lol.

to go from 50th place to 40th isn't worth £2000 lol.

If i were running just outside the top 10... they yeah maybe

paul.skibum

Try and borrow a reasonable hardtail - seems like the only way to see what beenefits a lighter bike brings. I am local to you but ride a small bike so cant help you out (not that my HT is a racer anyway).

The Meta is definitely not an XC racer - even a Super 4 would be pushing the wrong side of light.

On the other hand buying a second hand HT or FS might come in less than the cost of modifying the Meta to be anything like the new bikes weight so there is justification! It'd make the races more fun if you knew the difference between you and the top ten was fitness not just a weighty ride! Well at least it would give you more of a goal!

andyrm

I race XC on my Bionicon Edison – it weighs in at bang on 30lbs with DH tyres (2.3”). It’s fast, comfortable and forgiving (so less fatigue), allows me to storm through sections that others have to pick through, as well as giving the freedom to carve off line to overtake if need be.

People have suggested going lighter on my tyres, but my logic is that I can get fitter and stronger to counteract their weight and a slightly heavier tyre will slow me down less than a pinch flat mid-race.

I’d probably recommend getting the Meta set up to something you really like and can hammer the climbs and downs on, then focus on fitness – you’ll get far more out of it that way!

njee20

I'm inclined to agree with Paul though, if you're on a more XC biased bike you know it's the fitness that's the limiting factor, I think it'd be depressing knowing that you're giving away several minutes, irrespective of how fit you get!

weeksy59

I think maybe this could easily have snowballed more than any topic i've posted on here. It started as "should i spend £400 on a CUBE Acid for XC" into "should i sell the Meta and spend £2000 on a Scott "

Also i seem to have moved up the field from outside the top 50% to just outside the top 10 LOL....

From finishing 25 mins behind the winner to a couple of minutes too

I think we're putting the cart before the horse to a great extent.

XC racing isn't my life in the way it seems to be for some and time/familly dictate it probably never will be.

Maybe i should re-address this once it get to the top 20

andyrm

£400 will get you a ton of sessions with British Military Fitness - I'd be willing to bet you will get a far better ROI in terms of results and general ride enjoyment due to getting loads fitter than if you spent that on bike bits......

weeksy59

andyrm wrote:

£400 will get you a ton of sessions with British Military Fitness - I'd be willing to bet you will get a far better ROI in terms of results and general ride enjoyment due to getting loads fitter than if you spent that on bike bits......

You've lost me mate.. whats' that then ?

By the way, it's unlkely due to time of work and family... but sounds an interesting concept anyway... more info would be great (maybe for others too)

meesterbond

Spend the £400 on some lighter tyres and dinner out with the missus and when the opportunity arises to get a second bike, go for something racier.

Having dragged my sorry backside round a duathlon on my (rather burley) 5-Spot the other, I decided it was time to get a racier FS... picked up a secondhand frame and will be building it up out of bits off the 456...

neninja

I went from a light carbon Giant XTC composite to a Giant Anthem X (it's a lightish build about 24lbs) - i don't race but was noticeably quicker on the Anthem everywhere apart from long smooth surfaced climbs.

I'd go light 100mm FS everytime

GHill

second hand Boardman sounds like it would be ideal to me.

Steve_b77

I too am in the exact same position.

i'm considering chopping in my Cove Handjob frame for a lighter XC style one and then transfer all the bits over.

Decisions, decisions

njee20

Do it, more fun on the climbs, and you soon get used to bouncing off everything on the way down!

Steve_b77

Thats what I'm thinking, the Nic' covers everything else.

I've seen another that takes my fancy, a DHR Elite frame, 2.7lbs of Columbus Zonal Tubing lovelyness

andyrm

weeksy59 wrote:

andyrm wrote:

£400 will get you a ton of sessions with British Military Fitness - I'd be willing to bet you will get a far better ROI in terms of results and general ride enjoyment due to getting loads fitter than if you spent that on bike bits......

You've lost me mate.. whats' that then ?

By the way, it's unlkely due to time of work and family... but sounds an interesting concept anyway... more info would be great (maybe for others too)

BMF is awesome - group fitness training in your local park with military fitness trainers. Been going for a while now and not only is it very good in terms of results, the group nature stops it being boring like a gym session: http://www.britmilfit.com/

SDK2007

For your first year work hard on your fitness and change your wheels/tyres for something lighter.

I race Midlands XC events - I could roll up with a £10k Scott super XC bike and still finish mid field. The biggest difference is your fitness, once that is good then start thinking about spending more on light parts.

Petty Vagrant

I've just taken part in my first race, finished exactly half way in my group! Fitness was a real issue, I thought I was a lot fitter than I apparently am!

Hacking around the trails is just not the same a competing in a race, the stamina needed was very different as there was none of the standing around nattering that seems to be a fair part of my rides when out with mates!

weeksy59

Petty Vagrant wrote:

I've just taken part in my first race, finished exactly half way in my group! Fitness was a real issue, I thought I was a lot fitter than I apparently am!

Hacking around the trails is just not the same a competing in a race, the stamina needed was very different as there was none of the standing around nattering that seems to be a fair part of my rides when out with mates!

Very much agree, my first race was acomplete eye-opener for me and i thought i wouldn't survive lap 3 lol

njee20

Hacking around the trails is just not the same a competing in a race, the stamina needed was very different as there was none of the standing around nattering that seems to be a fair part of my rides when out with mates!

So don't stop to chat when you're out riding. Get to the top of a hill, get out of the saddle and sprint into the singletrack, don't stop at the bottom and hit the next climb flat out. Better done on your own admittedly, if I do a 3 hour MTB ride on my own I often won't stop or unclip once, even if you keep plodding slowly it's better for your race fitness than stopping IMO.

weeksy59

I never stop when out on my own.. However i struggle to find the strength to go flat out in the same way i do when in a race.. I guess that's the difference between the big boys and the wannabes

njee20

I think that's natural, I can't push myself as hard when riding as in a race. Try things like not changing down though, stay in the big/middle ring (as applicable!) rather than dropping to the granny, forcing you out of the saddle rather than dropping down and spinning. Basically, turn your MTB rides into interval sessions, but more fun!