Is it all a facade

kenniff

Is there a marked difference between ali and carbon and is it worth investing.
Tell me what advantage i would have over ali.
Is it just a sales gimmik......................????

FransJacques

that's a really lazy question b/c there's no answer - there's hype about alu, steel, ti, carbon. why is carbon any differnt? you need to do the thinking yourself, no one can answer this for you:
- what are your purposes? / what kind of riding?
- are you a cheap a$$ or spendthrift?
- how long will you keep it?
- what's your budget overall?

answer these questions then do some reading, there stuff all over the internet. of course if someone wants to tackle a long alu vs carbon treatise, go for it

danowat

I think I'd be hard pushed to tell the difference blindfolded TBH, I must be unsensitive, because I can't really tell a marked difference between my Alu and my Carbon bike.

Squillinossett

I love both my Alu and carbon bike, and to be hinest, there is not a world of diff between the two...

petemadoc

weight?

lotuseater

In my experience carbon gives a lovely smooth comfortable ride, absorbing shocks and vibrations, yet is stiff in the right places and light.

Dodger747

Must say I noticed a marked difference when I first got my carbon bike on my regular routes, all the little bumps get smoothed out far more with carbon.

synchronicity

Don't you mean façade?

Evil Laugh

In the right frame definitely.

Anonymous

Evil Laugh wrote:

In the right frame definitely.

+1

meggiedude

Maybe the happy compromise is Ally frame with carbon forks and seatstays.
A stiff frame, with Carbon in the right places to smooth things out a tad.
And at a lower price point.
Better that than a cheap fully Carbon frame - compromised by bad design/construction.

garryc

I went from an aluminium Trek 1.7 to a Cervelo R3 and the difference was huge.

Of course all the running gear on the Cervelo was better as well so that does make a difference. The thing I noticed most of all was how quickly it accelerated once I put the power down.

The Trek will now be my winter bike, but I'll be riding the Cervelo for as long as I can.

meggiedude

garryc wrote:

I went from an aluminium Trek 1.7 to a Cervelo R3 and the difference was huge.

Of course all the running gear on the Cervelo was better as well so that does make a difference. The thing I noticed most of all was how quickly it accelerated once I put the power down.

The Trek will now be my winter bike, but I'll be riding the Cervelo for as long as I can.

Hmm, Your not exactly comparing apples with apples here mate.
The R3 frame alone would cost more to purchase than the entire 1.7 bike when new.
Course its going to be better.

garryc

I do agree that the prices are very different. But it's very difficult to compare the two.

Can you compare Alu to Carbon without differing prices?

A good quality carbon frame tends to cost more than a good quality aluminium frame.

So the question seems to be 'Is a cheap carbon frame better than a good aluminium frame'?

In that case I'd probably stick with a good aluminium one.

Squillinossett

I think a good example would be to compare an earlier principia frame with say one of the Ribble offerings at that price for the frame.

Im guessing alot of people that would choose the principia if they were blindfolded.

If your comparing a £400 Alu frame with £1.5k Carbon frame, you would expect the more expensive one to be much better, no atter what material it is made out of!

meggiedude

garryc wrote:

A good quality carbon frame tends to cost more than a good quality aluminium frame.

So the question seems to be 'Is a cheap carbon frame better than a good aluminium frame'?

In that case I'd probably stick with a good aluminium one.

Yes, exactly. Most people go into a purchase with a set budget.
So as you say you are comparing top end Ally with low end Carbon.
If you are setting a budget low end Carbon comes in at about a grand - Focus & Boardman (sale prices)
Its horses for courses, and who knows how these lower end carbon bikes will hold together in the long run. Not enough historical data at this point.

danowat

Carbon also has an "image", so its likely to be a want thing, rather than a need thing, not that thats a bad thing.

mroli

Its not a direct comparison, but one of the Condor bikes (I ride the Squadra which is scandium, carbon rear stays, carbon fork, carbon seat post) is imho more than comparable with a say Boardman/Planet X/Ribble carbon framed bike. Having ridden other bikes, I have never had cause to regret my purchase - for everything from time trials, to triathlons to Sportives, to the JOGLE the bike has been great and I certainly don't feel that it is the bike rather than my ability holding me back! From what I've read from people on here, the CAAD bikes seem to invoke the same feeling - I think that if you get a decent frame that fit is by far the most important thing.

meggiedude

mroli wrote:

From what I've read from people on here, the CAAD bikes seem to invoke the same feeling - I think that if you get a decent frame that fit is by far the most important thing.

+1
Yep, and if I'd have been able to find a local black or Red 2010 CAAD9 in my size that is exactly what I would have plumped for.
My contingency was an Spesh Allez Comp which I am very happy with.

meggiedude

danowat wrote:

Carbon also has an "image", so its likely to be a want thing, rather than a need thing, not that thats a bad thing.

In my book 'want' and 'need' mean exactly the same thng

danowat

It is in most peoples!, I've always said carbon is like catnip for blokes.

I know that even the most bike unsavvy peoples first question about my bike/s are "is it carbon".

twotyred

In my experience carbon gives a lovely smooth comfortable ride, absorbing shocks and vibrations, yet is stiff in the right places and light.

Depends on the frame. Some race orientated carbon frames will rattle your fillings loose. My alu Kinesis with carbon forks has a nice smooth ride and no lack of stiffness.

kenniff

And that i suppose is the problem,without buying a carbon i wont know if it is worth it.
Because of the price difference my judgement may be clouded further.
I have looked at the 30 day trial bikes but worry about the prospect of damaging it etc.
Any advice greatfully recieved
cheers
ken

meggiedude

kenniff wrote:

And that i suppose is the problem,without buying a carbon i wont know if it is worth it.
Because of the price difference my judgement may be clouded further.
I have looked at the 30 day trial bikes but worry about the prospect of damaging it etc.
Any advice greatfully recieved
cheers
ken

Kenniff,
I quess it would help people here if we had an idea of your budget - and how often you intend using the bike ongoing. You not provided these facts
If you are talking 1 grand max and not using the bike every day then I personally would say there no point risking it to get a cheap carbon frame - you won't make the best of any of the perceived advantages from the material used. Stick with tried and tested Ally - maybe with Carb seatstays - if you like.
If you are going to be using the bike a lot more and have more cash to splash then maybe carbon is the way to go. After all you can currently get a 2010 Cannondale Six Carbon for 1400 notes - and that's Bike Radars Bike of the year
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/cannondale-six-carbon-named-2010-bike-of-the-year-25639
There's plenty in that article to wet your whistle.

At the end of the day the only thing you can do is try a few bikes out at a good LBS and take your pick. I am not keen on the 30 day trial period as you may find you are under pressure at the end of it to keep the bike. The store will not really want a 2nd hand bike back after all.
I personally read all the relevant articles. Make a shortlist and then try the bikes out on my list. Then its a gamble of whether I can live with the bike longer term, but life's a gamble anyway.

Bar Shaker

I've ridden a few bikes at the £1000 mark and there is quite some difference between ali and carbon. The lack of road buzz is a huge difference and its easy to under estimate how this reduces muscle fatigue.

There are variations in the stiffness of carbon frames. Push the BB laterally with your foot - some carbon bikes are more bendy than ali, some are much more rigid, all for similar prices. All carbon bikes do better than ali at getting the stiffness where it is needed and some ali bikes deliberately have flex to aid rider comfort. The best carbon frames are significantly better than the best ali frames, for the same money and the ali frames that chase a low weight fare particularly badly, in comparison.

If it were a façade, I am sure we would see plenty of ali bikes on the major tours.

Price is the big confuser. I love my Armani shirts but they are no better than my Lewins or Pinks, despite being three times the cost. They are probably all made in the same far east factories, before getting their labels sown on...much like most carbon bike frames.

Brands have perceived value much derived from advertising and sponsorship. Those that sell competitively may not have the budget for much marketing and may, wrongly, be thought of as sub standard. Their quality may well exceed that of a brand that spends 30% of its turnover on marketing and sponsorship. Ask yourself this, is a can of Red Bull, at £1.60, a better made drink than a can of Sprite at £0.70?

kenniff

bought mt first bike (bianchi virone with campag xenon)4 weeks ago.
Had no cycle training before that but was a profesional spotsman and coah for years,train on average 2 out of 3 days in different cycling guyses,sprint.hills etc
Have now got my training runs upto 24 miles with an average speed of 17.4/17.8 ish
can do 18 miles in an hour,5'8" tall 11 stone.50 yrs old.
hope this helps

twotyred

And that i suppose is the problem,without buying a carbon i wont know if it is worth it.

Absolute nonsense. Find a good bike shop, explain what you want to use the bike for get their recommendation of carbon and aluminium bikes then test ride a carbon bike vs. an aluminium bike. If they won't offer test rides find another shop.

kenniff

twotyred wrote:

And that i suppose is the problem,without buying a carbon i wont know if it is worth it.

Absolute nonsense. Find a good bike shop, explain what you want to use the bike for get their recommendation of carbon and aluminium bikes then test ride a carbon bike vs. an aluminium bike. If they won't offer test rides find another shop.

But untill ive ridden the bike on a decent ride on a familier route, how can a spin up the road help me decide.
It pays to get to know a lady a while before you move in with her...LOL

meggiedude

kenniff wrote:

twotyred wrote:

And that i suppose is the problem,without buying a carbon i wont know if it is worth it.

Absolute nonsense. Find a good bike shop, explain what you want to use the bike for get their recommendation of carbon and aluminium bikes then test ride a carbon bike vs. an aluminium bike. If they won't offer test rides find another shop.

But untill ive ridden the bike on a decent ride on a familier route, how can a spin up the road help me decide.
It pays to get to know a lady a while before you move in with her...LOL

If you don't have the experience to tell the difference the I don't know what the issue is.
Go with the one you are most comfortable on.

But I am a little confused. Your post above says you bought your first bike, a Bianchi, 4 weeks ago. Its a little late to start asking these questions now isn't it?

warrior4life

Ive ridden expensive carbon bikes that where badly maintained and they rode like crap!
This morning i rode an old trek 1000 that was mint and it rode like a dream, just as smooth as my cervelo s1 with sram force.

I went from a planet x sl pro to a trek madone and i expected a huge difference as the madone was twice the price but out on the rode one didnt feel any better than the other.

There are good bikes and not so good bikes..... I dont really think carbon makes you any faster... Maybe there is a little more vibration through an alu frame but i never found it slowed me down or caused me any pain.

If the bike fits and is well maintained then i dont think frame material matters that much..
Thats just my opinion....
I've found a slightly lose headset, lose cones, worn bearings or handlebars that arent straight makes far more difference than frame material.

G-Wiz

Difference I found in swapping form Ali to carbon was in the damping of vibration. A six hour ride is now about as painful as a 4 hour on Ali.

However, the new frame also has more flex meaning it doesn't sprint as well but then this is just a Planet X frame, hardly top end. On balance for what I need (weekend warrior and sportives) it's about right, but Santa has been asked to get an R3 in stock next year :-)

The old frame was a Cannondale Caad3, so again not exact comparison, but that was a top end bike in its day, Cippolini won most of his TdF stage on one.

I'd be interested in how a Caad9 feels after 6-8 hours if anyone has one?