Carbon to Titanium

van nic

Hello everyone im looking for advice....

Background - I mainly use my bikes for a 20 mile round trip to work and the odd longer ride. I would class myself as only having a very limited knowledge of cycling :oops: and the terms.
I currently have a carbon claud butler strada 105 and a ridley crossbow tigra.
I intend on spoiling myself and buying a titanium frame. ive been looking at the van nicholas mistral or euros and transfering the parts from the claud butler or buying a amazon frame and transfering the parts from the ridley.

Questions

1. Are all the parts compatable and is it easy to move it from bike to bike? :?:

2. Which bike you recommend btwn the mistral and euros? :?:


Thanks in advance
Mick

Anonymous

What is it you are expecting of a titanium frame over what you have?

lfcquin

NapoleonD wrote:

What is it you are expecting of a titanium frame over what you have?

He's expecting it to be AWESOME!!!!!! of course....

van nic

NapoleonD wrote:

What is it you are expecting of a titanium frame over what you have?

I know this may sound a bit sad but i like the look of titanium and im intending adding to the bike over the coming years as i get more into the cycling.

van nic

lfcquin wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

What is it you are expecting of a titanium frame over what you have?

He's expecting it to be AWESOME!!!!!! of course....

chrishd883

From your question I'm not sure how much cycling experience you have, but would make 2 points:

1. Have you considered Qoroz - a UK company based in South Glos? I did have a test ride at Castle Come racetrack and it was fantastic bike. But this would have been due to the frame and the high level equipment attached to it! If it wasn't for the high cost I could have been tempted away from my beloved CAAD8 Cannondale. As it is, given the choice today I'd still buy a CAAD9 - at the best spec I could afford. If you get in touch with them they may be arranging other sessions. One guy drove down from Milton Keynes to South Glos to see the range & ride round the track!?!?!

2. I would advise you to keep on riding and wait until you can buy or build a well specce'd Ti bike. Don't see much point in buying a top end frame and fitting it out with lower end kit. At the very least you'd want a good set of wheels to go with it - and those don't come cheap!

EKIMIKE

If you want one, buy one. If you don't like the look your bike then it'll probably spend more time in the shed than on the road.

To actually answer your questions, the parts should shift over easily. Everything will be compatible bar possibly the front mech. In the case of the front mech, the band may be the wrong size or you may have/require a braze on fitment. In any case, front mechs are cheap so don't worry.

You'll probably need a new set of cables and tools to transfer stuff over if you're doing it yourself. Cable cutter are vital IMO, Hollowtech II BB tool is vital, and possibly a chain tool (although KMC links make life easier).

As for reccomendations between the models, that depends on alot of stuff. If you can get to a Van Nicholas dealer then do so before making a decision. Chances are you'll be able to test ride the frames or at least sit on them and the dealer will have brand specific knowledge and make recommendations accordingly.

Monty Dog

There's a good review of ti bikes in this month's C+ - there isn't really a bad one!

Most parts should carry across - but may differ in areas like: headset and fork - particularly if new frame has longer headtube. Front mech mounting. BB fitting should be the same. Certainly budget for new cables, bartape and maybe a new fork.

EKIMIKE

One thing i find dubious about Ti bike frames is that many are made of lower grade Ti. Unless you're paying top dollar, then you're probably getting lower grade.

I don't know enough about materials but i find that slightly misleading in so much as are you getting the commonly attributed advantages of Ti with 3/2.5 (lower grade) as you do with 6/4 (higher grade)? Anyone with any knowledge got any ideas?

I'm of the opinion that for th price you pay for 3/2.5 Ti frames, you can get a custom 953 Steel frame. 953 and Ti share the 'bike for life' and 'comfortable ride' tags but would you prefer top end steel over low end Ti for little more than a weight penalty?

sundog

lfcquin wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

What is it you are expecting of a titanium frame over what you have?

He's expecting it to be AWESOME!!!!!! of course....

'Bang for Buck' is what you are looking for

TMR

EKIMIKE wrote:

One thing i find dubious about Ti bike frames is that many are made of lower grade Ti. Unless you're paying top dollar, then you're probably getting lower grade.

I don't know enough about materials but i find that slightly misleading in so much as are you getting the commonly attributed advantages of Ti with 3/2.5 (lower grade) as you do with 6/4 (higher grade)? Anyone with any knowledge got any ideas?

I'm of the opinion that for th price you pay for 3/2.5 Ti frames, you can get a custom 953 Steel frame. 953 and Ti share the 'bike for life' and 'comfortable ride' tags but would you prefer top end steel over low end Ti for little more than a weight penalty?

The lower grade you speak of is hardly crap. Some of the best handmade bike manufacturers in the world use both grades. There's nothing at all wrong with 3/2.5; happy Ti frame owners throughout these forums will attest to this

DaSy

EKIMIKE wrote:

One thing i find dubious about Ti bike frames is that many are made of lower grade Ti. Unless you're paying top dollar, then you're probably getting lower grade.

I don't know enough about materials but i find that slightly misleading in so much as are you getting the commonly attributed advantages of Ti with 3/2.5 (lower grade) as you do with 6/4 (higher grade)? Anyone with any knowledge got any ideas?

I'm of the opinion that for th price you pay for 3/2.5 Ti frames, you can get a custom 953 Steel frame. 953 and Ti share the 'bike for life' and 'comfortable ride' tags but would you prefer top end steel over low end Ti for little more than a weight penalty?

I believe that 6/4 ti is generally made from sheet which is rolled and seamed to make a tube, so much of the advantage of its better strength is lost through the seaming process, making it not much stronger but a lot more expensive.

Reynolds make a mandrel butted seamless tube with 6/4 ti, but this is extremely expensive.

Speaking to a guy from Litespeed about why the top tube alone was made of 6/4 on the Archon, he echoed the above, saying as the top tube had to be seamed anyway due to the shape, they could use 6/4 to good effect, but that the advantages of it were not great in the cycling applications over 3/2.5.

This is all from a lay persons perspective, I have no materials science training, so could be very wrong, but it all sounded very plausible...

EKIMIKE

The Mad Rapper wrote:

The lower grade you speak of is hardly crap. Some of the best handmade bike manufacturers in the world use both grades. There's nothing at all wrong with 3/2.5; happy Ti frame owners throughout these forums will attest to this

That's why i'm asking the question.

giant_man

EKIMIKE wrote:

One thing i find dubious about Ti bike frames is that many are made of lower grade Ti. Unless you're paying top dollar, then you're probably getting lower grade.

I don't know enough about materials but i find that slightly misleading in so much as are you getting the commonly attributed advantages of Ti with 3/2.5 (lower grade) as you do with 6/4 (higher grade)? Anyone with any knowledge got any ideas?

I'm of the opinion that for th price you pay for 3/2.5 Ti frames, you can get a custom 953 Steel frame. 953 and Ti share the 'bike for life' and 'comfortable ride' tags but would you prefer top end steel over low end Ti for little more than a weight penalty?

3Al/2.5V titanium isn't 'lower grade',most ti bikes (probably 90%) is with this grade of titanium. 6/4 is a lot harder to work with and does give a different feeling, and usually used for dropouts or other hardware. I favour the 3Al/2.5V grade for the feeling you get on the road. Try telling a Serotta or Baum owner his bike is made of 'lower grade' ti .....

rake

arent most ti bikes classed as gas pipe frames, being made of straight gauge tubing. while its a nice material, it cant be an efficient usage of it with plain gauge round pipes. what surprises me is the amount of people selling ti bikes and frames second hand, i thought the idea was a bike for life ie 60 years worth. have they fallen short of excpectations ?
ill be sticking with my caadman kuotaized made in the far reaches of sweet and sour taiwan untill the exchange rate tightens in, which case were all doomed.

DaSy

rake wrote:

arent most ti bikes classed as gas pipe frames, being made of straight gauge tubing. while its a nice material, it cant be an efficient usage of it with plain gauge round pipes.

This is key in my opinion, there seems to be a lot of magical properties associated with just the material, but a plain gauge ti frame is pretty uninspiring to ride in my experience.

A good ti frame made with shaped and butted tubes can be a joy, but expensive. I think a lot of companies jump on the ti bandwagon, making some pretty dull frames knowing that the material alone will be enough to entice people.

In the same way as steel can be made into a lively and engaging frame as well as a gas tubed behemoth. Ti is just the material, the quality of the tubes and the build still maketh the frame, and this usually doesn't come cheap.

van nic

Thanks for all the great replies im a bit taken back by the quick comprehensive replies.
Does anyone own a euros or mistral to comment on them?



thanks again

paul_smith_srcc

van nic wrote:

...Background - I mainly use my bikes for a 20 mile round trip to work and the odd longer ride. I would class myself as only having a very limited knowledge of cycling :oops: and the terms.
I currently have a carbon claud butler strada 105 and a ridley crossbow tigra.
I intend on spoiling myself and buying a titanium frame. ive been looking at the van nicholas mistral or euros and transfering the parts from the claud butler or buying a amazon frame and transfering the parts from the ridley.

Questions

1. Are all the parts compatable and is it easy to move it from bike to bike? :?:

2. Which bike you recommend btwn the mistral and euros?....

The Van Nicholas Mistral is a budget version of the Van Nicholas Euros so the riding experience between the two is similar, as for the riding experience of Titanium bikes compared to similar styled bikes but using frames of other materials simply see if you can test some, that way you can come to your own conclusions. I do compare frame materials in ’This thread’ that may be of interest

As for transferring items across from your existing bikes, other than bar tape and cables that many often replace when doing a frame change then most items should transfer across, all the Van Nicholas bikes you mention have 27.2 seat pins and a 31.8mm front mech’ so those two items are worth checking to see if yours are the same.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

Scrumple

My ti bike is a keeper.

I can update the bits, heck I can even change the stickers whenever I want. I can vary the decals by colour, and can spend my money on parts.

My carbon Wilier is my Sunday bike, and I don't see that lasting as long before it either gets damaged or "dates".

Get one. Just - get the one you want. There are lots 2nd hand as buyers think all Ti is equal, and they realise the shape/size/frame isn't quite what they wanted. Also, the amount 2nd hand shows they really do last. I'd suggest you get a sportive type frame, that can fit guards - so you always have an all round machine for winter use.

As you change your racer due to trends and upgrades, your ti will still do the job as the support bike. Always there, always ready. If you buy a Ti as your main race bike you are always going to get itchy feet and consider selling - we all do with our main bike as something new is always around the corner.

Ti is a great "number 2".

EKIMIKE

DaSy wrote:

rake wrote:

arent most ti bikes classed as gas pipe frames, being made of straight gauge tubing. while its a nice material, it cant be an efficient usage of it with plain gauge round pipes.

This is key in my opinion, there seems to be a lot of magical properties associated with just the material, but a plain gauge ti frame is pretty uninspiring to ride in my experience.

A good ti frame made with shaped and butted tubes can be a joy, but expensive. I think a lot of companies jump on the ti bandwagon, making some pretty dull frames knowing that the material alone will be enough to entice people.

In the same way as steel can be made into a lively and engaging frame as well as a gas tubed behemoth. Ti is just the material, the quality of the tubes and the build still maketh the frame, and this usually doesn't come cheap.

Thanks, that's interesting to know.

Giantmancp - keep your kickers on, i was just asking a question.

van nic

Paul_Smith SRCC wrote:

van nic wrote:

...Background - I mainly use my bikes for a 20 mile round trip to work and the odd longer ride. I would class myself as only having a very limited knowledge of cycling :oops: and the terms.
I currently have a carbon claud butler strada 105 and a ridley crossbow tigra.
I intend on spoiling myself and buying a titanium frame. ive been looking at the van nicholas mistral or euros and transfering the parts from the claud butler or buying a amazon frame and transfering the parts from the ridley.

Questions

1. Are all the parts compatable and is it easy to move it from bike to bike? :?:

2. Which bike you recommend btwn the mistral and euros?....

The Van Nicholas Mistral is a budget version of the Van Nicholas Euros so the riding experience between the two is similar, as for the riding experience of Titanium bikes compared to similar styled bikes but using frames of other materials simply see if you can test some, that way you can come to your own conclusions. I do compare frame materials in ’This thread’ that may be of interest

As for transferring items across from your existing bikes, other than bar tape and cables that many often replace when doing a frame change then most items should transfer across, all the Van Nicholas bikes you mention have 27.2 seat pins and a 31.8mm front mech’ so those two items are worth checking to see if yours are the same.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

Thanks paul

le_patron

I've got a Van Nic Aeolus (6Al/4V). It has done all sorts. If that is of any use I'll write a longer ownership summary. Cheers.

kfinlay

chrishd883 wrote:

Have you considered Qoroz - a UK company based in South Glos?

I so want a Qoroz Race Won! Lovely modern looking titanium bike thats fast and should be comfortable. I often find Ti bikes look like tourers and thats just not for me - still lovely bikes but I want something more contemporary looking as an alternative to CF. Now how do I convince my wife I need about £3-3.5k to spend on a bike when my exisiting bike cost a tenth of that!!! :roll:

greg roche

Saw this and thought i'd at least chip in on the 3al vs 6al debate....

I'm not the materials scientist here, but in principle:

3al 2.5v is the more ductile grade of titanium, so has a capacity to take on repeated load cycles. Benefits are therefore comfort because it soaks up vibration well and also longevity because it can take those repeated load cycles without fatiguing. Secondly, as someone else stated, 3al can be drawn seamlessly. In terms of butting, there are two options, where the tubeset is drawn butted (mandril butted) or subsequently has material removed. Mandril butting is superior and what we use here at Sabbath.

6al 4v is a harder material and more brittle. It is also more expensive. It is unavailable seamless, as far as i'm aware. However, 6al can be made into a lighter frameset because, potentially, less material can be used to achieve a given strength or stiffness. Because it is less ductile, it can be more prone to failing, however.

The reality is that both materials have their advantages. We use 3al 2.5 v, butted or otherwise, for all our tubesections. We feel it gives better ride quality and will faigue less. However, we use 6al for machine parts where ride feel wont be an issue and where weight saving can be advantageous - for example on drop outs or other machined parts (integrated head tubes, in our case, aren't actually tubes, they are 6al machined from a block.)

I would actually say that Ti is pretty easy to comprehend; there's two material standards used in bike frame manufacture.

Greg

t0ph0id

Does anyone know anything about SP!N bikes?

Can only find them on eBay - http://stores.ebay.co.uk/The-Spin-Cycle ... arbon-Bike

Anonymous

Spin used to make very very light carbon fibre road frames...

Dunno if it's the same company...

pastey_boy

spin look like someone has had a load of bits made up in taiwan/china/hongkong and created a new brand. all the bits they list can be had much cheaper buying direct via ebay

Anonymous

That they do. That they do....

EKIMIKE

Completely different company NapoleonD.

http://www.spin-system.de/gato.htm

Monty Dog

The comments about 'gas pipe' ti frames probably relates to the CP - commerically pure - frame sold by the likes of Raleigh and Samson/Kinesis about 15 years ago.
Reynolds make a seamless 6/4 tube - but it is expensive.
6/4 ti is harder to machine than 3/2.5 so this adds to the cost and limits it use to top-end only. I have both 6/4 and 3/2.5 frames - the 3.2.5 is extremely durable and remarkably flexy - the 6/4 positively sings in comparison.

gwillis

I have to say having looked at the Qoroz Race Won and the web site im really impressed . I kicking myself ever so slightly that I didnt see it before I bought my Bianchi theres something about the bike I really like but I cant quite put my finger on it. Maybe its the fact that ti is so durable and the bike will last years.