Is buying a 2nd hand “C2W” bike theft ??

vroomvroom
vroomvroom Posts: 72
edited August 2010 in Road beginners
There seems to be a lot of nearly new bikes for sale on the tinterweb (especially 1,2 and 3 month old boardmans)…being a suspicious person I get the feeling that they could be C2W bikes with the owners looking to make quick turn??

What is the score if I was to buy one?? I would have thought the tile must still belong to the company and not the individual? Is there anyway to check out ownership. i.e. insist the seller produces a receipt in their own name (and not the company they work for ??)

cheers

Comments

  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    C2W bikes belong to individuals - not businesses. The owner still has to pay for the bike once purchased, whether he owns it or not....
  • louthepoo
    louthepoo Posts: 223
    or maybe boardman bikes are crap :wink:
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  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    softlad wrote:
    C2W bikes belong to individuals - not businesses. The owner still has to pay for the bike once purchased, whether he owns it or not....

    sorry I belive that is incorrect

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/b ... emes-18360
    How it works

    Your employer buys the bike and ‘hires’ it to you until you’ve paid it off. You pay the full retail price of the bike through monthly instalments (salary sacrifice) taken out of your pre-tax and National Insurance pay. So there’s no Income Tax or National Insurance taken out on those payments. This translates to almost 50 per cent off a brand new bike, paid for over 12 months usually.
    Who owns the bike?

    Until the hire period is finished, the employer owns the bike.
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  • mobilekat
    mobilekat Posts: 245
    C2W is basically a hire purchase scheme the same as people use on cars.
    So the car/bike belongs to the HP company (the employer- or the C2W scheme company) until paid off.

    Easy way to end up with less money and no bike!!
    Avoid like the plague!!
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  • merlinghnd
    merlinghnd Posts: 106
    mobilekat wrote:
    C2W is basically a hire purchase scheme the same as people use on cars.
    So the car/bike belongs to the HP company (the employer- or the C2W scheme company) until paid off.

    Easy way to end up with less money and no bike!!
    Avoid like the plague!!

    Beg to differ, great scheme, get a new bike for nearly half price( if a higher rate tax payer, my employed pays the VAT), interest free over 12 months plus final payment of 3% plus VAT.
  • rake
    rake Posts: 3,204
    louthepoo wrote:
    or maybe boardman bikes are crap :wink:
    mines totally crap, it finished off some ponce running on zip wheels tonight. :shock:
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Well, I've just had my e-mail from the scheme asking to pay to own the bike. Their fair market value was a hefty total of 57 quid. :D
  • So long and short.....

    If I buy a c2w bike in good faith…no way for hp co (employer) to pursue me….unlike if you by a car still on hp

    Whatever way you look at it there is a large number of nearly new bikes for sale ..which means either the owners suddenly find they are pants when they get them home or good intentions turn to buyers guilt

    Sold my B&O speakers after 10 years of ownership now have pocket full of cash and urgent need for a race bike……
  • rake
    rake Posts: 3,204
    vroomvroom wrote:
    So long and short.....

    If I buy a c2w bike in good faith…no way for hp co (employer) to pursue me….unlike if you by a car still on hp

    Whatever way you look at it there is a large number of nearly new bikes for sale ..which means either the owners suddenly find they are pants when they get them home or good intentions turn to buyers guilt

    Sold my B&O speakers after 10 years of ownership now have pocket full of cash and urgent need for a race bike……
    buyers guilt is my bet, coupled with being totally new to the sport, "what have i done" :shock: . some people need the best when starting out, oh dear its not for me, i still need to pedal it. good for bargain hunters like yourself though. i did the same and after 1700 miles i still hold it in the same high regard as when i bought it. i got the reciept, dont know if it was c2w but theyre going to have a hard time finding it, if the pay is deducted before tax surely you have no choice of defaulting payments, i know nothing of the scheme.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    I've seen people openly admitting on ebay that its a c2w bike and that its just a month or 2 old. Nice way for them to get a lump sum I guess. I just wish my employer would get its finger out and sign up.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    To clarify,

    1) it is not like a hire purchase scheme. The hirer has no right to purchase. It is a loan of a bike, it is the employer's property.

    2) The offer to buy the bike at the end of the loan period is entirely at the employer's discretion.

    3) Buying something from someone who does not own it does not pass ownership to the buyer. You may escape a handling stolen goods charge, but you cannot be the legal owner. The legal owner can have their property back without recompense.
  • rake
    rake Posts: 3,204
    even if you hold the receipt?
  • alfablue wrote:
    To clarify,

    1) it is not like a hire purchase scheme. The hirer has no right to purchase. It is a loan of a bike, it is the employer's property.

    2) The offer to buy the bike at the end of the loan period is entirely at the employer's discretion.

    3) Buying something from someone who does not own it does not pass ownership to the buyer. You may escape a handling stolen goods charge, but you cannot be the legal owner. The legal owner can have their property back without recompense.

    Not necessarily true; a bona fide purchaser for value without notice can take good title.
  • garrynolan
    garrynolan Posts: 560
    vroomvroom wrote:
    There seems to be a lot of nearly new bikes for sale on the tinterweb (especially 1,2 and 3 month old boardmans)…being a suspicious person I get the feeling that they could be C2W bikes with the owners looking to make quick turn??

    What is the score if I was to buy one?? I would have thought the tile must still belong to the company and not the individual? Is there anyway to check out ownership. i.e. insist the seller produces a receipt in their own name (and not the company they work for ??)

    cheers


    Hey vroomvroom, not being funny, but can you tell me what website(s) I can find Boardman bikes - had mine nicked and am trying to replace with same. Ta very much.
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  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    rake wrote:
    even if you hold the receipt?
    Irrelevant, many people have had their newly purchased cars repossessed when it turns out they are the property of a party other than the seller (i.e. stolen cars or cars on hp).
    Not necessarily true; a bona fide purchaser for value without notice can take good title.
    It is possible to take good title where there is no dispute as to ownership, however the seller should have title of the property in order for it to be transferred to a buyer.

    "For a valid transaction to take place, the previous owner must have an indefeasible title to the property and must transfer it to the new owner. Proof of this may be difficult, since it involves proving a negative: first there must not be anyone with better title than the previous owner, and second the previous owner must not have already transferred title to anyone else".

    In reality it appears unlikely that an ebay buyer could have title of a bike sold by a hirer under the bike to work scheme.
  • pilot_pete
    pilot_pete Posts: 2,120
    Ok,

    So, you buy a bike off Ebay. It turns out to be C2W. You pay a 'cheap' price for it and are over the moon as it is virtually brand new. What is the problem?

    1. Technically you don't own it. The seller's employer does until it is 'paid up'.

    2. Is that a problem? Technically yes, as you could lose the bike. But in reality? You don't give a seller your full contact details when you buy it and turn up to collect it (unless of course you get them to send/ deliver it). So who is to know?

    3. The only way it becomes a problem is because of the frame number. This would be traceable back to the employer/ original purchaser. But will this actually become an issue? Unlikely. The original purchaser takes out the 'loan' with their employer. If they default, then they risk more than a bad debt................if they can't 'hand the bike back' if they default then they risk even more with their employer.

    4. Will an employer take legal action to recover a bike which they don't even want? Unlikely again.

    So where is the problem? Well, you MAY get your fingers burnt (unlikely but possible), but the major problem is that you potentially will screw others up by employers terminating the scheme due to abuse. You moral choice I guess......

    PP

    ps I reckon the scheme is not long for this world due to the change of government and the big deficit that needs repaying.............
  • Weejie54
    Weejie54 Posts: 750
    You don't give a seller your full contact details when you buy it and turn up to collect it (unless of course you get them to send/ deliver it). So who is to know?

    The seller would have your contact details as soon as the bidding is done ("view order details") - unless, of course, you had joined eBay with false details - which means you are 'at it' as much as the seller.
  • carl_p
    carl_p Posts: 989
    So in summary it seems that if you buy a second hand/CTW bike off Ebay that is not actually owned by the seller there is a small chance you could have the bike taken away from you if you can be traced from your contact details. You are then faced with trying to recover your financial loss from the seller (good luck with that). If however you buy the bike via the Classifieds, and pay cash for example, then it is extremely unlikely you will ever be traced.

    In a lot of CTW schemes the employee doesn't actually take ownership of the bike until after 3 years regardless of how long ago they completed the repayments and only then if they pay a nominal sum to buy the bike outright. Until then it is technically not their property to sell.
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  • merlinghnd wrote:
    Beg to differ, great scheme, get a new bike for nearly half price( if a higher rate tax payer, my employed pays the VAT), interest free over 12 months plus final payment of 3% plus VAT.

    What a tight wad
    My pen won't write on the screen
  • dulldave
    dulldave Posts: 949
    rake wrote:
    louthepoo wrote:
    or maybe boardman bikes are crap :wink:
    mines totally crap, it finished off some ponce running on zip wheels tonight. :shock:

    I think you'll find it was you who beat him, unless you both had the bike equivalents of Herbie. If your wheels fall apart in 4 months time you'll still have beaten that guy.
    Scottish and British...and a bit French
  • bilirubin
    bilirubin Posts: 225
    [/quote]Beg to differ, great scheme, get a new bike for nearly half price( if a higher rate tax payer, my employed pays the VAT), interest free over 12 months plus final payment of 3% plus VAT.[/quote]

    +1, in fact my accountant picked up on the fact the CTW contract stated I must pay the money back over a minimum of 12 months, so I went for 18 months instead.

    To be honest I spent £1,000 on a new bike, clipless pedals, shoes & cleats and by the time the VAT has been taken off the balance spread over 18 months coming out of my wages is hardly noticable. :lol:
  • Wulz
    Wulz Posts: 100
    Does anyone actually have an example of an employer refusing to pass the bike on to the employee?

    I have not but in every case ive seen or read about people end up owning a bike.

    I think talk of companies owning the bike are pointless unless someone has an example of someone being out of pocket for the "hire" of a bike with no ownership. This talk might put people off the scheme which in my opinon is very good.

    So any examples of employers keeping bikes?
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Wulz wrote:
    Does anyone actually have an example of an employer refusing to pass the bike on to the employee?

    I have not but in every case ive seen or read about people end up owning a bike.

    I think talk of companies owning the bike are pointless unless someone has an example of someone being out of pocket for the "hire" of a bike with no ownership. This talk might put people off the scheme which in my opinon is very good.

    So any examples of employers keeping bikes?
    I haven't heard of any such cases, however I think there is a possibility that if a company went bust, the bikes would be one of their assets that might be of interest to creditors.

    I don't think employers want to keep bikes, not at all, but the issue of selling something that isn't yours, or buying something from someone who isn't the legal owner, is legally wrong and possibly morally wrong (depending on your morals). Obviously that is of no relevance to a lot of people, each to their own . . . unless they are stealing from me!
  • brettjmcc
    brettjmcc Posts: 1,361
    Pilot Pete wrote:
    Ok,
    I reckon the scheme is not long for this world due to the change of government and the big deficit that needs repaying.............

    Of course, the PM now longer is the oppostition and no longer nees to bike to work followed by his Lexus carrying his briefcase. He just walks downstairs now.

    +1 on wishing your employer would sign up to C2W. I ended up paying £900 for a second hand Cnnondale. If they did it, does anyone know if you have to get a bike, or could I get a TT frame and some bits???
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