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Easier hill climb gearing? How? HELP!!!!

willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
edited August 2010 in Workshop
I have the following bike and an utter nightmare to sort out:

Condor Bivio cyclocross bike
Compact 34-50 chainset
12-25 Rear Cassette
Shimano 105 Road Levers

I will be loading the bike up with luggage and riding from Lands End to John O'Groats at the end of August. Although I'm training a lot I did part of the ride last year and had to get off on various occasions because I just didn't have the cogs for it. That was on an old bike that was stolen at Christmas, a compact cassette and an 11-28 ultegra cassette.

So I bought the new Shimano XT 10-speed cassette, 11-34 and long cage rear derailler and new chain. The [self censored] rear derailer is not compatable with my road shifters. Bxxxxxxxxs. Fxxxxxxx bxxxxxxxx. I'm totally screwed. I've got the bike in the shop right now and they're telling me it won't work. So my options are what? Does anyone make a long cage (for a 34) rear derailer that is compatible with Shimano 105 Road Shifters or is there nothing I can do except buy another 11-28 and just get off and walk occasionally?

I do not want to spend £300 getting a front triple chainset just to have the equivalent of 28-30 when for half that I would have had 34-34 which natually I'd prefer.

Someone help me!!!!!!!
Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
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Posts

  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,441
    Will your 105 shifters pull SRAM's new Apex rear mech?

    http://www.sram.com/news/sram-apex-road ... -takes-you

    That mech will take SRAM's 11-32 cassette and possible Shimano's equivalent offering - sorry, but I'm not fully versed in cross-compatibility.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
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  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    Apparently not. I had assumed my 105 shifter would pull Shimano's own XT 10 speed rear mech. Wouldn't you think they would????? But apparently they don't. And apparently (according to Evans) the Shimano levers will not pull a SRAM rear derailleur. So I have an 11-34 10 speed cassette and no derailleur I can use with it.

    Anyone know of a 10 speed shimano road derailleur that can go up to a 34 tooth ring?
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • You could go madly retro. and fit a friction shifter to the downtube.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,441
    I would have thought maybe, but never be sure... Now something rings a bell that SRAM shifters can pull Shimano MTB mechs. Not a cheap option admittedly, but can anyone confirm that?
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • daintonjdaintonj Posts: 18
    Did they give a reason why not?

    I know you're on 10spd 105 which may have a different amount of cable pull (well almost certainly) to a 9spd system.

    I replaced the 105 rear mech with a deore mech and a 9spd 12-32 sram cassette and it shifts fine with my 9spd tiagra shifters.

    I was under the impression that the 10sp chain for road and mtb bikes was the same width, that the sprocket spacing was the same. Therefore I assumed the pull would be the same (looks like I could be wrong).
    Genesis Vapour w/mudguards - FCN 6
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    It appears the pull on the XT is different. Could I use a Deore rear mech? Which one if I were to try?
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • will3will3 Posts: 2,173
    Apparently not. I had assumed my 105 shifter would pull Shimano's own XT 10 speed rear mech. Wouldn't you think they would????? But apparently they don't. And apparently (according to Evans) the Shimano levers will not pull a SRAM rear derailleur. So I have an 11-34 10 speed cassette and no derailleur I can use with it.

    Anyone know of a 10 speed shimano road derailleur that can go up to a 34 tooth ring?

    IN what way do they not work with the MTB mech?
  • daintonjdaintonj Posts: 18
    edited July 2010
    will3 wrote:
    Apparently not. I had assumed my 105 shifter would pull Shimano's own XT 10 speed rear mech. Wouldn't you think they would????? But apparently they don't. And apparently (according to Evans) the Shimano levers will not pull a SRAM rear derailleur. So I have an 11-34 10 speed cassette and no derailleur I can use with it.

    Anyone know of a 10 speed shimano road derailleur that can go up to a 34 tooth ring?

    IN what way do they not work with the MTB mech?

    That's what I was curious about as this post
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12691053&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 covers similar points.
    Genesis Vapour w/mudguards - FCN 6
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    EVANS just said they couldn't get the right actuation and that the new XT 10 speed rear mech is ONLY compatible with the latest special 10 speed mountain bike shifters. Not at all with my 105s. That's what they said.
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • daintonjdaintonj Posts: 18
    Evans are correct (shock horror!) http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shimano-xt-slx-go-10-speed-in-2010

    Cosmetically, the updated groupsets will look identical to the current XT and SLX, and brakes and front shifters will be unchanged. All Dyna-Sys components will be inter-compatible, so, for example, you'll be able to use an XT chain with an SLX cassette. However, Shimano say the new parts – which will be available from June 2010 – won't be compatible with their nine-speed mountain bike components or 10-speed road components.
    Genesis Vapour w/mudguards - FCN 6
  • BikerbaboonBikerbaboon Posts: 1,017
    call or email shimano and ask them. worth a shot to get it from the horses mouth.

    http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content ... ct_us.html
    Nothing in life can not be improved with either monkeys, pirates or ninjas
    456
  • will3will3 Posts: 2,173
    daintonj wrote:
    , Shimano say the new parts – which will be available from June 2010 – won't be compatible with their nine-speed mountain bike components or 10-speed road components.[/i]

    Eejits. What were they thinking.

    A 9sp MTB mech stands a good chance of working tho' I'd have thought
  • daintonjdaintonj Posts: 18
    Going away from the mechanical problem as it seem unsolvable.

    34x28 is a pretty OK gear for hills, with a bit of training aimed at conquering hills it should get you over most climbs.

    I changed my cassette for a different reason. I was finding that for commuting to work I was either on the small ring and the 11 sprocket or big ring and at the other end of the cassette. By moving to a 12-32 I can ride in the big ring and have a decent chainline at my normal getting to work pace. It's really a fractional change but it suits my riding style and was replacing broken and worn out components.

    34x32 is such a low gear I can't ever imagine using it on a road bike (mine is a cross bike w/rack and panniers).
    Genesis Vapour w/mudguards - FCN 6
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,532
    you can use a shiftmate to get the sram rear mech to work with shimano shifters

    http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate_straight.htm

    model 6 will do you i think, in uk buy from...

    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Jtek ... -19044.htm
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    You don't need a "10 speed" rear mech. A "9 speed" MTB rear shimano derailler will index correctly on a 10 speed cassette when used with 10 speed shimano shifters.
    I like bikes...

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  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    My Cannondale Six is a Triple (52-39-30) and with an 11-28 rear cassette and it's soooo lovely to have that extra flexibility on very steep but usually short slopes.

    My Condor is the bike I'm riding LEJOG on and I really didn't want to end up with the same set-up as last year - 34-50 and 11-28 giving me a best ratio of 34-28. I was really hoping to get close to 34-34.

    Why isn't this allowed? What sort of IDIOT designs systems and doesn't make the cable pull consistant across the range? What possible logic is there in running incompatible systems with the same make?

    Can't even use the new SRAM Apex 11-32 without changing my Road Levers as well which is sooooo unfair as it's mega expensive to do.
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    You don't need a "10 speed" rear mech. A "9 speed" MTB rear shimano derailler will index correctly on a 10 speed cassette when used with 10 speed shimano shifters.

    Apparently the spacing on the 11-34 Shimano cassette is not the same as a standard 10 speed Road cassette. Hence it doesn't work.
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • rhextrhext Posts: 1,639
    I don't know if this opens up possibilities, but you could try using a medium-cage 105 rear mech instead of long-cage XT. This will leave you with some (a few) combinations of gears which you need to avoid because the mech can't take up the chain slack - but they're perhaps not combinations you'd want to use. Google search turns up several hits like the one below, which contains a handy table you can use to help decide!

    http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/t ... -rear-mech
  • Weejie54Weejie54 Posts: 750
    edited July 2010
    sungod wrote:
    model 6 will do you i think, in uk buy from...
    The Shiftmate #6 is for STI shifters and SRAM 1:1 derailleurs. I doubt if it will work - but it might. From what I gather, a Shimano 9 speed derailleur will work, but I have no personal experience.

    There are a few saying that it works. An example:
    I use 105 10 speed shifter and XTR Shadow 9 speed rear mech (10 speed Ultegra cassette) no problems.
    http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/t ... i-shifters

    Presumably, if the Ultegra cassette works, any Shimano 10 speed spaced cassette will work.
    Apparently the spacing on the 11-34 Shimano cassette is not the same as a standard 10 speed Road cassette. Hence it doesn't work.

    Even if that's true (which I find hard to believe) all you would need to do is build the sprockets up with standard 10 speed spacers - sprocket thickness might be different but unlikely.
  • Could you not switch your Cannondale Six kit over to the Condor ?
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    I thought about it, and I've finally decided to give up.

    10 speed Shimano road is the issue. If I was using 9 speed shifters I'd have all the mountain bike cassettes available to play with but I'm not.

    And I don't want to muck up my gorgeous Cannondale. I cosset that bike. Love it.

    Have ordered an 11-28 Shimano 105 rear cassette and a new KMC X10 chain.

    About to go and collect my bike. It's had it's self taken apart and put back together for nothing. :-(
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • redddraggonredddraggon Posts: 10,862
    You don't need a "10 speed" rear mech. A "9 speed" MTB rear shimano derailler will index correctly on a 10 speed cassette when used with 10 speed shimano shifters.

    Apparently the spacing on the 11-34 Shimano cassette is not the same as a standard 10 speed Road cassette. Hence it doesn't work.

    Evans make censored up
    I like bikes...

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  • unixnerdunixnerd Posts: 2,864
    Can't you just use a long cage 105 rear mech and a road cassette with a nicer range? I have one of those on my Cannondale but with a triple at the front. Can't see why it wouldn't work for a double.

    I'd settle for a 28 tooth granny gear though, any more than that may cause problems. I have an 11-32 or 34 on my tourer but it uses an Acera(?) rear mech and Sora shifters. It's 8 speed (fairly old bike). For the record my XT mountain bike uses an 8 speed 11-28 road cassette with no problems.
    http://www.strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible Price.
    Specialized Roubaix SL3 Expert 2012, Cannondale CAAD5,
    Marin Mount Vision (1997), Edinburgh Country tourer, 3 cats!
  • unixnerdunixnerd Posts: 2,864
    Have ordered an 11-28 Shimano 105 rear cassette and a new KMC X10 chain.

    I think you've done the right thing. And I understand all about cosseting Cannondale road bikes ;-)
    http://www.strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible Price.
    Specialized Roubaix SL3 Expert 2012, Cannondale CAAD5,
    Marin Mount Vision (1997), Edinburgh Country tourer, 3 cats!
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    Am thinking of also swapping my 34 tooth front ring for a 33 tooth. It was suggested i a previous thread. Cheaper than getting a triple and makes, say 3% difference, but every little helps!
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • deswellerdesweller Posts: 5,271
    edited July 2010
    Any 9-spd Shimano MTB mech will work.

    The indexing is done by the shifter, not by the derailleur. I have a mate who regularly swaps mech and cassette over in order to tackle very hilly sportives (he rides a double, but when we're doing 1-in-4s the gearing's a bit tall).

    So it will be fine. It's just the latest XT stuff that's not compatible.

    EDIT: What about SRAM cassettes? They have always been Shimano compatible in the past.
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  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    Any suggestions on this. Struggling to find any!
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    Doesn't the fact I have 10 speed shifters affect whether I can use 9 speed derailleurs and cassettes?
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
  • Weejie54Weejie54 Posts: 750
    Doesn't the fact I have 10 speed shifters affect whether I can use 9 speed derailleurs and cassettes?
    10 speed shifter and cassette and 9 speed mech seems to be the answer.
    As I said, I haven't tried it but many people say it works.
  • willharris10willharris10 Posts: 166
    I'm losing faith in the inter-operability of Shimano Mech's with 10 speed shifters. Sounds as though you're suggesting you can use a 9 speed XT or XTR derailleur with 10 speed road shifters on old, 9 speed rear cassettes and it should shift ok? Or would the 9 speed rear mech work on a 10 speed SRAM Apex 11-32 cassette? This could be a solution.

    Though as things stand I've ordered a Shimano 105 11-28 cassette and will look at getting a 33 tooth front chainring and that will have to do! It's as good as I guess I'll be able to get. At least I'll never be able to go slowly up hills :-(
    Summer - Cannondale Six Ultegra
    Winter - Condor Bivio - cyclocross bike for commuting, cycle paths & rainy days - brilliant

    LBS - Sigma Sport in Hampton Wick - Simply the best LBS
    Stolen - 2001 Specialized Allez Elite :-(
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