Landis - Comments from the pros.
Comments
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BikingBernie wrote:
Which is why my first post said...EKIMIKE wrote:Sorry but when did Twitter become so f**king important? I for one don't give a toss. Proper media interviews with questions and answers hold a thousand times more weight than 140 characters mashed into an iPhone.
"Overall, the silence from the Pros is pretty deafening, so here is a thread to keep a record of who is passing comment and who isn't. (Not just on twitter)."
Well fair game. But you were inferring Twitter with references to iPhones. Not 'avin a go, i just take the view that compared to Twitter, an interview by Kimmage, Walsh, Fotheringham would be far more telling.
I'm sure they'll come in time.0 -
Never said it was, but they should be free to comment and in the past many riders have commented on doping-related issues.RichN95 wrote:They're riders, not WADA. It's not their job the investigate and judge.
Ha! Quite right! If you are a pro cyclist, what is potentially the biggest doping bust in the sport's history, along with the possible exposure of institutional corruption in the UCI has nothing to do with you. Until the shit hits the fan and you end up looking for a new job of course....RichN95 wrote:I'll make it simple for you. Generally, in all spheres of life people tend to stay out of arguments that don't involve them.0 -
I don't know what it's like where you work, but we all mutter and mumble and dissect gossip/rumour/allegations amongst ourselves, but fain ignorance when management or anyone 'outside' is near. I expect it is much the same in the hotels at night.'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
Neil Gaiman0 -
I have never denied that there is a 'political' aspect to my dislike of Armstrong / what he stands for. For one he is a good illustration of what a fraud the idea of the 'meritocratic society' actually is, unless 'merit' is taken to mean much the same as Mr. Burns argues in The Simpsons.DaveyL wrote:It's pretty clear to most people that your agenda is driven more by politics than doping.
"If you can take advantage of a situation in some way, its your duty as an American to do it. Why should the race always be to the swift or the jumble to the quick-witted? Should they be allowed to win merely because of the gifts God gave them? Well, I say, cheating is the gift Man gives himself."
Of course, the converse is also true in that many defend Armstrong because he represents the sort of competitive, individualist, 'dog eat dog', 'to the winner the spoils' values they hold dear.0 -
what would be really refreshing is those of us who post under pseudonyms proffered our thoughts in such a way that we could be individually identified by those we accuse of various misdemeanours.
We'd be on a level playing field with the riders then, eh BikingBernie?0 -
EKIMIKE wrote:samiam wrote:EKIMIKE wrote:Sorry but when did Twitter become so f**king important? I for one don't give a toss.
Proper media interviews with questions and answers hold a thousand times more weight than 140 characters mashed into an iPhone.
You need to catch up with the real world then because times change. Twitter, these days, is extremely important.
Come on.... please tell me you're joking? For your sake.
Anyway, you're telling an 18 year old to catch up with change. Mate, i am part of the change that is happening in this world. Twitter has it's place as a social curiosity but it is in no way shape or form a replacement for journalism.
Not necessarily, Twitter is more of a supplement to journalism rather than a mere curiosity, it allows riders to quickly speak their mind (sometimes). It has the possibility to tell us what the rider is thinking on an issue as it happens. Of course, for some, the silence is just as telling as angry tweets would have been.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
I would love to discuss such issues, but unfortunately my time is currently taken up with people intent on still arguing that Armstrong was clean.DaveyL wrote:It may have passed you by, "Bernie", but recently we've also had the 2009 Tour's king of the mountains under investigation following passport anomalies, and the number one ranked cyclist, who has earned millions of Euros in the last few years, still riding when he should have been banned.
Any plans to break your own personal "omerta" on these issues?
actually I think the argument has moved since his comeback from
he is clean? to>>> even if he is so what everybody did it? and now moved again to.... even if he is should we really pursue it for the good of the(choose your bias) sport/public/other riders/cancer survivors/fans/small children?
in other words
why pick on Armstrong
you must be anti-american or something etc etc etc"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Many of the forum members here care about the effects doping has on the sport they enjoy, and they comment on all aspects of it.
Others are a bit more "single issue", leading one to conclude that doping is not the primary driver for them.
Might be better to pick on doping in general, eh?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:Many of the forum members here care about the effects doping has on the sport they enjoy, and they comment on all aspects of it.
Others are a bit more "single issue", leading one to conclude that doping is not the primary driver for them.
Might be better to pick on doping in general, eh?
this all or nothing argument needs to be tempered.. from both POV
just because someone is fixated on LA does not mean doping is not a issue for them..
the sheer audacity of LA's perceived villainy may elevate his statue in many peoples mind over the issue of doping
is does in mine
the geezer is a MASSIVE villain in my cycling world view... (along with JB)
the figure head role he has does carry weight in the scale of who's who in this drama fest ...
Its a role he himself has cultivated for his own ends
OTOH
BB can be tedious but at least these threads are current in what are talking about...
as long as the haters don't derail the actual racing threads and keep the thread count down (this thread may be one more thread too many) I think they have aplace in this forum.
my tupence...
is the ToC on yet?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Yes just like the rise of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, all those people who buried their heads in the sand didn't want to know, thus allowing it to happen. Just like all those Pro riders who stay quiet and make up the Omerta they too are complicit in it and part of the problem allowing the bull, lying, cheating and farce that is unfortunately Pro cycling.
Your comments just endorse the sweep it under the carpet mentalityColnago C60 SRAM eTap, Colnago C40, Milani 107E, BMC Pro Machine, Trek Madone, Viner Gladius,
Bizango 29er0 -
Flanners1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Yes just like the rise of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, all those people who buried their heads in the sand didn't want to know, thus allowing it to happen. Just like all those Pro riders who stay quiet and make up the Omerta they too are complicit in it and part of the problem allowing the bull, lying and cheating that is Pro cycling.
Fail.0 -
Flanners c'mon your not trying to say this fiasco is the same as the rise of the Nazi's and the Holocaust a bit OTT i would say - I am in agreement that Pro -Cycling some of the heads that run it and direct it are guilty and hopefully its just a matter of time before they are found out and no matter how much money you have you cant "buy" anyone0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Flanners1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Yes just like the rise of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, all those people who buried their heads in the sand didn't want to know, thus allowing it to happen. Just like all those Pro riders who stay quiet and make up the Omerta they too are complicit in it and part of the problem allowing the bull, lying and cheating that is Pro cycling.
Fail.
Yes, wikipedia is gospel isn't it, however your link does contain:
A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons
Your views and reaction sum it all up IMO.Colnago C60 SRAM eTap, Colnago C40, Milani 107E, BMC Pro Machine, Trek Madone, Viner Gladius,
Bizango 29er0 -
Flanners1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Flanners1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Yes just like the rise of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, all those people who buried their heads in the sand didn't want to know, thus allowing it to happen. Just like all those Pro riders who stay quiet and make up the Omerta they too are complicit in it and part of the problem allowing the bull, lying and cheating that is Pro cycling.
Fail.
Yes, wikipedia is gospel isn't it, however your link does contain:
A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons
Your views and reaction sum it all up IMO.
Comparing cheating in what is inevitably an arbitrary sport with arbitrary rules with a genocide?
Give me a break.0 -
Gazzetta67 wrote:Flanners c'mon your not trying to say this fiasco is the same as the rise of the Nazi's and the Holocaust a bit OTT i would say - I am in agreement that Pro -Cycling some of the heads that run it and direct it are guilty and hopefully its just a matter of time before they are found out and no matter how much money you have you cant "buy" anyone
True mate, I think you are right but it is how corruption and deceit is allowed to continue, by the very views of some in the Pro peleton, Mr Chasey and most of the morally bankrupt regimes and people from and in all walks of life.Colnago C60 SRAM eTap, Colnago C40, Milani 107E, BMC Pro Machine, Trek Madone, Viner Gladius,
Bizango 29er0 -
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We will just have to bide our time and hopefully this Landis affair brings all the dirty washing out in public once and for all - your correct cheating goes on in all walks of life - ok people might not get caught straight away but if you look at the likes of the banking crisis liehmann bros RBS here in the UK they named and shamed and in some cases some folk are doing porridge now.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Indeed. Unfortunately some people on here think it would be a good idea for a pro to start making pronouncements about something they know little about and have no involvement in and crucially would serve no purpose.
None of the anonymous critics on here have offered up what they think these riders should sayingTwitter: @RichN950 -
To make direct statements about the subject is a terrible idea. However, in light of events that have unfolded this week, the silence about anything remotely related to the subject (not the issue in particular) is evident. For all the talk of 'omerta', the peloton has a healthy proportion of riders who've been enthusiastic about the subject. Not this week.0
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RichN95 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Smacks me as a massive sh!tstorm for everyone concerned, true or not, so if you're not directly involved/implicated, why would you go anywhere near it?
Indeed. Unfortunately some people on here think it would be a good idea for a pro to start making pronouncements about something they know little about and have no involvement in and crucially would serve no purpose.
None of the anonymous critics on here have offered up what they think these riders should saying
I dont know...how about something paraphrasing some neutralish position such as
very serious allegations these... I think the relevant bodies should conduct a thorough investigation to get to the bottom of this so we can either confirm or dismiss them
you know... no one has even the gump to say we need to establish these allegations are false... or some such
people worry about saying something and that burning bridges may be the result... but as this thing unfolds you better make sure your standing on the right bank after all the bridges have gone down...
the thing I need to keep reminding myself is the majority of these guys are just kids who are in a heavily mentored and cossetted environment (which many of us have experienced..yes?)
they also lack perspective of the outside view..
in some instances its clearer from here.. i mean how ridiculous do they look thinking they are fooling anybody?
this isn't going to go away"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:
I dont know...how about something paraphrasing some neutralish position such as
very serious allegations these... I think the relevant bodies should conduct a thorough investigation to get to the bottom of this so we can either confirm or dismiss them
you know... no one has even the gump to say we need to establish these allegations are false... or some such
Riders probably have said things like that when asked, but it's not news worthy, doesn't take sides and doesn't add to the debate, so therefore there's no point reporting it. Better to focus on the key players, rather than a bland statement which basically says 'no comment'.
If I was a Pro I'd say something similar to what you wrote. If I was a journalist, I wouldn't bother reporting it.
However, you weren't one of those calling for riders to make a stand against Armstrong.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 -- you are beginning to sound a lot like Dennisn and that is scary.
I doubt Landis allegations will bring down the Lance temple -- but hopefully they will open an investigation that will shake the UCI's house to the core. Investigations have their own dynamic and with a little luck we will see a critical mass of forces that pushes very serious questions in a number of different directions.
Get off Bernie's back -- he is just asking where are the big mouths? His Holiness Mr. Millar and his Excellency Mr. Wiggins.0 -
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A good find, just the sort of thing I was hoping for.Bakunin wrote:
Interesting how Vende-Velde shifts the blame for the 'pain' the sport is experiencing from the dopers to Landis as the messenger. I also like the way he tries to suggest that doping is largely a thing of the past. :roll:
``It's unfortunate the past keeps getting dug up over and over again,'' Vande Velde said. ``It wipes away all the hard work we have been doing over the last years trying to clean up the sport and being transparent, when things that happened eight years ago keep being brought up.''
I asked Vande Velde how much credence anyone could give to Landis' allegations and confession to having been a big-time doper, given that he had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in denying he had used performance-enhancing drugs after the positive test at the 2006 Tour.
``You're not going to believe too much of it, that's for sure,'' Vande Velde said. ``It has been a long stream of lies...0 -
P.s With regards the ''Godwin's law" thing brought up earlier. I don't think that anyone would suggest that the way the riders are closing ranks means that their actions can be placed alongside those who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust. However, what is the case is that both situations arise from common psychological processes. Whatever, in order to better understand the ease with which people can turn a blind eye to even terrible events because they don't want to be seen to speaking out, read the following, one of the best insights into this process I have ever read.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html0 -
RichN95 wrote:mididoctors wrote:
I dont know...how about something paraphrasing some neutralish position such as
very serious allegations these... I think the relevant bodies should conduct a thorough investigation to get to the bottom of this so we can either confirm or dismiss them
you know... no one has even the gump to say we need to establish these allegations are false... or some such
Riders probably have said things like that when asked, but it's not news worthy, doesn't take sides and doesn't add to the debate, so therefore there's no point reporting it. Better to focus on the key players, rather than a bland statement which basically says 'no comment'.
If I was a Pro I'd say something similar to what you wrote. If I was a journalist, I wouldn't bother reporting it.
However, you weren't one of those calling for riders to make a stand against Armstrong.
hmmm perhaps at any other time
but at the mo?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
